New Legislation for SA P Plate Drivers

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by bluebloodxr8

Please lets all make some noise about a national system, but not just for road rules, I would like everything national.
Help me drag WA out of the 1970's. :

Spose you'd like a Bill Of Rights with that?! Seems a trendy thing.

We have a set of 'national road rules' and as stated earlier, our graduated licensing systems are "harmonising".

[Joshvee]

Originally Posted by gilmore

we do need some sought of legislation fast.still,i think power to weight needs a good look at.

This is spot on. Theres no point saying no turbos, no sports V6, no V8 because ppl will find a way around the law. Then the law will have to be constantly modified to add new cars as they get more powerful.
The law needs to be a KW to weight rule. Like P platers can't drive a car with more than 50KW per tonne or something.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Joshvee

This is spot on. Theres no point saying no turbos, no sports V6, no V8 because ppl will find a way around the law. Then the law will have to be constantly modified to add new cars as they get more powerful.
The law needs to be a KW to weight rule. Like P platers can't drive a car with more than 50KW per tonne or something.

And how is that measured? How many kw/tonne does a BF XR6T demonstrate?

The only vehicles that are a problem with the V8/turbo rule are esoterics such as the above mentioned porsche, BMW M, Nissan Z etc.

The smartarses will always try to find a way around it and others will just ignore it. It is designed to try and save lives and those with the attitude that it is designed to prevent them having fun usually get sorted in the long run.

The major reason why this is such a huge problem now is that 30 years ago almost all cars could not even do 160km/h or a 400m in under 20 seconds and those that could were far too expensive for young people to buy.
There was no "instant finance" and if you wanted a car you had to save up a deposit, prove to the finance company that you could make the payments and THEN have a guarantor who also had to prove that they could make the payments and had collateral in case it all went splat.

[seXCmont]

the XR6T i think has approximately 100kw per tonne something like that. and is a good way to get learning drivers out of more powerful cars. quite like on ya bike license where it is restricted to 660cc tops and has to fit under a power to weight ratio. Of course people are going to break this rule but will soon find that they can get caught under it. other states are doing it so we should be able to aswell.

[montyv8]

I agree entirely with new rules for L and P drivers being required here. But as was mentioned earlier, the XF that crashed in west lakes last week... he could have done the same damage in a corolla. Then there's all the other idiots on the roads that aren't L/P drivers. That threesome the other week, the wrx/stobie pole/skyline sandwich on magill road. One didn't have a license at all, and the other one (correct me if i'm wrong) had his full license? But i think that may be getting off topic.
Curfews are good, but they start to affect nightshift workers etc.. From memory (a while ago now) on my restricted licence in NZ, I couldn't drive after 11pm with passengers in the car unless there was someone in the car with me who was over the age of 20 and had held their full licence for 2+yrs.Perhaps something like that, but someone over 25yrs?
You could still drive by yourself at any time. In 95% of these crashes, there are passengers involved. you can't show off your mad sick powerslide/racing skills to your mates if they're not in the car with you..

[Wally]

The road toll here is 21% up over the previous year.

For the 2008/2009 period the toll per 100k people is:

ACT 4.02
VIC 5.49
NSW 6.35
SA 7.63
QLD 8.03
WA 9.75
TAS 10.61
NT 26.6

The south east rate here has dropped 37%, but it seems the killing ground is north of the city with increases as high as 107%.


The biggest jumps are 25 -59 age group, speeding, seniors 60+. The 17- 24 year olds are down a percentage point or two.

By age group:

Children.. 18
17-24 .... 78
25-59 ....195
60+ .......52

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Wally

The road toll here is 21% up over the previous year.

For the 2008/2009 period the toll per 100k people is:

ACT 4.02
VIC 5.49
NSW 6.35
SA 7.63
QLD 8.03
WA 9.75
TAS 10.61
NT 26.6

The south east rate here has dropped 37%, but it seems the killing ground is north of the city with increases as high as 107%.


The biggest jumps are 25 -59 age group, speeding, seniors 60+. The 17- 24 year olds are down a percentage point or two.

By age group:

Children.. 18
17-24 .... 78
25-59 ....195
60+ .......52

No no you must be wrong. NT has a speed limit now and the road toll has gone up????
This is unpossible........

[Wally]

Originally Posted by prydey

i guess we'll never know until they build one.


I would suggest it could have the opposite effect. more and more rules will just make the challenge greater. a bit like when you are young and your parents tell you NOT to do something...

i'm not so old that i can't remember what it was like when i was learning. there were no restrictions, and people still drove fast in cars and occasionally ran out of talent. the problem these days goes way beyond what is happening on the street. its a whole new lifestyle the 'young' lead these days and quite often its a matter of 'when' and not 'if'.

like i mentioned earlier, a large number of these accidents and deaths are not the result of drag racing, but just sheer stupidity. drugs and alcohol have a lot to answer for.

i think the govt needs to be a lot tougher in some areas. recently a new energy drink was allowed onto the market. it is called 'cocaine'. this is just blatant glorifying of drugs. call me a fuddy duddy if you will. while they focus on cars, general society suffers.

I tend to agree with you on all those points. Drugs, action games and too much stimulation while growing up has contributed to a certain recklessness and selfishness.

One major thing that hasn't changed is youthful invulnerability. Once cocooned in their ride they are free of the do this, don't do this diet they have been fed at home ... freedom to do it their way without pesky responsibility.

I must say I am much more comfortable with a high powered car when overtaking or snap manouvering to avoid a bingle.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by flappist

No no you must be wrong. NT has a speed limit now and the road toll has gone up????
This is unpossible........

Imagine what it would have been without those limits!

[Foylema]

Since the high road toll in South Australia starting a few months ago cops have been real asses to anything with a P plates, I got defected on saturday night i have a EL stock apart from lowerd n exhaust. This is going to cost me alot of money i got a $318 fine for the car not applying to standards and $175 to take it to regency and i dont no how much it going to cost to fix the stupid crap they find arrr

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Wally

Imagine what it would have been without those limits!

I don't have to, I can just consult the road statistics for the last umpteen years.

The was a marked rise EXACTLY the same time as the limits and the toll has stayed high. No other things changed but as this does not fit in with the agenda of the "experts" I am sure the apologists will have many explanations that cannot be proven without long periods of experimentation.

The "the other way would be worse" is the standard reply from people who have no idea why the world does not work they way they want it to.......

[Wally]

Originally Posted by flappist

...........
The "the other way would be worse" is the standard reply from people who have no idea why the world does not work they way they want it to.......

Yeah, yeah, but it was too good an opportunity not to throw in a juvenile hackneyed smartypants statement. :evil3:

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by seXCmont

the XR6T i think has approximately 100kw per tonne something like that. and is a good way to get learning drivers out of more powerful cars. quite like on ya bike license where it is restricted to 660cc tops and has to fit under a power to weight ratio. Of course people are going to break this rule but will soon find that they can get caught under it. other states are doing it so we should be able to aswell.

And the rest...

245/1700x1000 = 144Kw/Tonne

125Kw/Tonne is the Vic Limit. I wish a XR6T was within the limit... lol.

[Joshvee]

Originally Posted by flappist

And how is that measured? How many kw/tonne does a BF XR6T demonstrate?

ummmm rated KW divided by rated weight, multiplied by 1000.

It's called maths. :

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by Joshvee

ummmm rated KW divided by rated weight, multiplied by 1000.

It's called maths. :

I think the point is, how does plod measure power/weight when he's pulled over a vehicle being driven by a P plater? Mobile dyno? Assume manufacturers specs are accurate and the driver hasn't tinkered under the bonnet?

Do I feel restrictions on power are needed for the inexperienced? Aboslutely. Is there a failsafe method to restrict and police at the moment? Not really. Restricted vehicles seem to be an easier method than p/w though.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Joshvee

ummmm rated KW divided by rated weight, multiplied by 1000.

It's called maths. :

Really? You are such a clever person.

Does this demonstrated power change when you fiddle with the flash? Or will this just be manufacturer's rating?

Like the 206kw GTR Skylines or Supras that show more than that at the wheels or perhaps the 290kw BA GT that has the most efficient transmission in the world losing less than 15%.

And how much does the car weigh? Every FPV I have owned was within 15% of what the brochure stated.

How much power does your 310kw F6 make and how heavy is it?

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by flappist

Really? You are such a clever person.

Does this demonstrated power change when you fiddle with the flash? Or will this just be manufacturer's rating?

Like the 206kw GTR Skylines or Supras that show more than that at the wheels or perhaps the 290kw BA GT that has the most efficient transmission in the world losing less than 15%.

And how much does the car weigh? Every FPV I have owned was within 15% of what the brochure stated.

How much power does your 310kw F6 make and how heavy is it?

We've had this discussion before and I've been shut down so many times over this issue, by you and everyone else who has decided to jump in like 4VMan in particular plus the P plater lynch squad which forms when the laws get brought up. Alright, fair enough, we have restrictions on what we can drive, the only thing I don't agree with is the recent banning of V8s though. The power to weight ratio restriction is perfectly fine, majority of us P platers are . I have no problem with that, but why blanket ban V8s? I think the EL XR6 was actually faster than the XR8 to 100, due to the less weight and being within 11Kw of each other, why is the XR8 banned? When you think about it, its more power to weight ratio that matters than how many cylinders the engine has.

I reckon power to weight ratio and banning certain cars would have been the way to go, rather than blanket ban engines with 8 or more cylinders. Just because something has a V8, doesn't automatically make it fast, look at a Ford F100 for example, I don't think they'll be setting any records in the street racing department, the only thing they do is make your local petrol station happy.

[Joshvee]

Originally Posted by flappist

Really? You are such a clever person.

Does this demonstrated power change when you fiddle with the flash? Or will this just be manufacturer's rating?

Like the 206kw GTR Skylines or Supras that show more than that at the wheels or perhaps the 290kw BA GT that has the most efficient transmission in the world losing less than 15%.

And how much does the car weigh? Every FPV I have owned was within 15% of what the brochure stated.

How much power does your 310kw F6 make and how heavy is it?

278 RWKW and 1853Kg. (with 12" subwoofer)

Yes it would just be manufacturer's rating. Granted, It would be difficult to gauge the power to weight ratio on the street, but factory specs would still be able to be used as a springboard as to what they may or may not drive.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by Joshvee

278 RWKW and 1853Kg. (with 12" subwoofer)

Yes it would just be manufacturer's rating. Granted, It would be difficult to gauge the power to weight ratio on the street, but factory specs would still be able to be used as a springboard as to what they may or may not drive.

Or you could just do what they do now, any performance modifications are banned, so you ensure that they're only running factory stuff.

Cops would be able to point out things like extractors and stuff. Flash tunes, you wouldn't be able to point out but I'm guessing you can't get much extra power out of a flash tune?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

We've had this discussion before and I've been shut down so many times over this issue, by you and everyone else who has decided to jump in like 4VMan in particular plus the P plater lynch squad which forms when the laws get brought up. Alright, fair enough, we have restrictions on what we can drive, the only thing I don't agree with is the recent banning of V8s though. The power to weight ratio restriction is perfectly fine, majority of us P platers are . I have no problem with that, but why blanket ban V8s? I think the EL XR6 was actually faster than the XR8 to 100, due to the less weight and being within 11Kw of each other, why is the XR8 banned? When you think about it, its more power to weight ratio that matters than how many cylinders the engine has.

I reckon power to weight ratio and banning certain cars would have been the way to go, rather than blanket ban engines with 8 or more cylinders. Just because something has a V8, doesn't automatically make it fast, look at a Ford F100 for example, I don't think they'll be setting any records in the street racing department, the only thing they do is make your local petrol station happy.

Daymoe you really just don't get it. These laws have to be enforced and you may be surprised to learn that a degree in mechanical engineering is not a prerequisite for position as a police officer.

The simple no V8 or turbo rule is easy enough to understand and apply to most situations by anyone.
The only people who are upset about it are the ones that it is most likely to save, the "trainee hoons".

I reckon P platers should be banned from RWD vehicles as well, that will stop the whole commodore/e-mutant culture completely.

Lucky I am not the King eh.......

[prydey]

Originally Posted by flappist

These laws have to be enforced and you may be surprised to learn that a degree in mechanical engineering is not a prerequisite for position as a police officer.

some of the ones you meet, i'm not sure there's any prerequisite!!

[FreddyDUZ747]

Qoute;flappist

I reckon P platers should be banned from RWD vehicles as well,

What about the young rural community,im sure they will excited about that one.People in country and on farms ect need the RWD option for obvious reasons.P plate taxi drivers will be forced into Toyota Camrys .Revers ringys would be riot as well :

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by flappist

Daymoe you really just don't get it. These laws have to be enforced and you may be surprised to learn that a degree in mechanical engineering is not a prerequisite for position as a police officer.

The simple no V8 or turbo rule is easy enough to understand and apply to most situations by anyone.
The only people who are upset about it are the ones that it is most likely to save, the "trainee hoons".

I reckon P platers should be banned from RWD vehicles as well, that will stop the whole commodore/e-mutant culture completely.

Lucky I am not the King eh.......

Yes, I know the rules have to be enforced. But what was the theory behind the no V8s law? Wouldn't it have been more effective to ban certain cars or just lower the power to weight ratio limit? 99% of those 70s/80s cars with V8s like XA-XE aren't actually that great performance wise.

[MITCHAY]

What I find funny is that a lot of people who think opening drag strips and tracks won't lower the road toll also think that adding power restrictions will. I'm not necessarily talking about these forums either :

I have read one or two studies based on the relationship between high performance cars VS accidents/injuries/fatalities and both concluded that it made up f all of the total.

Regardless, I am very grateful that I was allowed to drive whatever I wanted. I can say from personal experience that anyone who could afford a high performance car at my age when I was a P plater would not end up wrapping it around a tree.

Yes they are cheaper these days but you still need the work ethic to do the hours required on peanut wages to afford it and that means you need to a responsible person in most cases.

I bought a high performance car on my P plates, and I'm still alive. I could have easily bent my TX5 as I could have bent my WRX.

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

What I find funny is that a lot of people who think opening drag strips and tracks won't lower the road toll also think that adding power restrictions will. I'm not necessarily talking about these forums either :

I have read one or two studies based on the relationship between high performance cars VS accidents/injuries/fatalities and both concluded that it made up f all of the total.

Regardless, I am very grateful that I was allowed to drive whatever I wanted. I can say from personal experience that anyone who could afford a high performance car at my age when I was a P plater would not end up wrapping it around a tree.

Yes they are cheaper these days but you still need the work ethic to do the hours required on peanut wages to afford it and that means you need to a responsible person in most cases.

I bought a high performance car on my P plates, and I'm still alive. I could have easily bent my TX5 as I could have bent my WRX.

I've been working since 2006, so what 3 years you say which is nothing compared to 99% of the members on this forum but I believe I've earned the right to spend my own money on a car of my choice. When you spend your own hard earned, its different, because you had to work to get that money, rather than mummy and daddy buying a suped up car for you to abuse. You tend to look after things a lot more when its YOUR money.

Though, I'd hardly call a car with a V8 a "high performance car". THAT right there is my only gripe with the rules.

[4Vman]

Poor daymoe... the world just not fair, rules and all...

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by Daymoe

Though, I'd hardly call a car with a V8 a "high performance car". THAT right there is my only gripe with the rules.

Clutching at straws. What does it matter what they refer to it as. A V8 is a V8. If 300kw+ is not high powered, can you please post me a little of what your smoking?

[Daymoe]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

Clutching at straws. What does it matter what they refer to it as. A V8 is a V8. If 300kw+ is not high powered, can you please post me a little of what your smoking?

Oh ok, so that $500 XE Falcon with a 302 is going to be breaking records now is it? or that V12 in the 1992 BMW 750IL which makes a whole 220Kw for a car which probably weighs about 2 tonnes? Any sort of modern 4 cylinder NA car will kick the crap out of standard XA-XE Falcons with V8s all over the place, from 0-100 right down to the track. A v8 is a V8 alright, not all of them make 300Kw+ and how many FPV V8s fit under the 125Kw/Tonne rule, not to mention, how many p platers have the $70,000 for oen anywas?

An XE makes what, like 150Kw from its 351? Weighs about 1500Kg and being 20+ years old means it isn't going to be running well, a 1999 S15 Nissan Silvia Autech weighs 300Kg less, makes 147Kw and I can legally drive that?

If anything, you should be happy about P platers driving old crappy V8s, because we're keeping the local servo cashier in a job. Feel free to point out where I said that a 300KW V8 isn't high powered.

You know, V8s did exist before FPV came around.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Poor daymoe... the world just not fair, rules and all...

All you do is bait people into flame wars, grow the hell up. I can be an E-Thug too but I decide not to. If a rule came in that outlawed any modifications to any car you'd all be up in arms crying so don't be a hypocrite, everyone already has a sook about getting defected for modified cars, so how is this any different? People have a sook for being busted 3km/h over the limit and being fined, people have a sook for the hoon laws. I cry about the No v8 rule, give me a break.

If they brought in extra taxes for cars over a certain displacement everyone would be screaming highway robbery. Its all easy to send insults to people when you aren't under a certain restriction. Especially one which doesn't make sense.

If someone actually read my earlier post, I AGREE WITH THE DAMN P PLATE RULES EXCEPT FOR ONE PART.

Why no V8s? WHY? What was wrong with the power to weight ratio rule and no forced induction? What the hell is the logic behind it? Hell it would have been more effective to ban Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores because they're the chosen car of choice when it comes to hooning and you know, hooning is only done by people on P plates.

This subject has to me the MOST SENSITIVE subject that can ever be discussed on this forum, by FAR.

[FreddyDUZ747]

Are we in parlament?how about us people come up with some proper guidelines and stop the bikkering.Dont worry about yourself and think of it from the point of view of a young nephew or freind on the road in a couple years.A license is a privelidge and one having to obey guidelines for a while is not much to ask.So lets come up with some geniune ideas of guidelines. :

[Daymoe]

I'd love some proper guide lines, but you can't argue with these people.



We've got got opinions but no one is coming out with any sort of logic behind my main argument, The no V8s rule if you didn't pick that up in the big rant I just had. If you can explain the logic behind banning V8s, you're a genius. All I've got so far is flappist telling me I don't get it, which is true BECAUSE I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY NO V8s? Then 4VMan coming along and baiting me into a flamewar and some random jumping in about 300KW V8s which I never said anything about.