Should an FG Territory replace a wagon lineup?

[GasoLane]

Where's the 'Ditch the Terror Tory and keep the Wagon' option

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by 2008WhiteSR

[From the Ford website]

Falcon Wagon luggage capacity (rear seats up): 1260l
Territoty luggage capacity (second row seats up): 1153l
Falcon sedan luggage capacity: 535l

Wow - Only 100L - I never would have guess that. I suppose the higher head room is where it's at.

So if 95% of wagon sales are fleets, would it not be better of to package a base model wagon directly for fleet - ie:

Floor Mats
Bluetooth
Safety Triangles
Full Spare
Weathershield
Fire Extingisher
First Aid Kit


I mean, if its nearly all sales to fleet, customise a car that is suited for fleets?
I am by no means a market expert, but thats just the way I see it (which may or may not be a good thing)

[Dazza XLT]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Wagons have only sold well at a base level for Ford. Only 50 AU3 Fairmont wagons were sold, that was a few years before the Territory was on sale, so it was dropped from the range. The ED/EF XR6 wagons only sold a few hundred, and the Ghia wagon was dropped because of low sales.

Fair enough, I was unaware of those facts & figures.

[XR Martin]

Territory's capacity with 2nd row folded is 2541L, Falcon wagon 2584L

VT-VZ Commodore wagon capacity is 2752L with seats folded...

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Territory's capacity with 2nd row folded is 2541L, Falcon wagon 2584L

VT-VZ Commodore wagon capacity is 2752L with seats folded...

And at this time of year on any highway you can see them filled to capacity

[Smoke Pursuit]

Falcon wagons dead.. It wont live past 2010 and who would want it to. Alot of big fleets are already moving to Territory neways, better resale and happier employees due to the extra comfort and safety (side curtain airbags and better vision). Plus the price isnt that far away either, only a few kay difference between the two.

The Territory kills the Falcon wagon, unless your living in the 60's and enjoy that wagon look.

[Mr Hardware]

Originally Posted by Kia Chaser

So if 95% of wagon sales are fleets, would it not be better of to package a base model wagon directly for fleet - ie:

Floor Mats
Bluetooth
Safety Triangles
Full Spare
Weathershield
Fire Extingisher
First Aid Kit

You forgot LPG!!!!

[Spanrz]

I think my sig says it all.!

[Antwon]

My friends Mum had a Territory and she sold it because apparently it was slow, thirsty and hard to drive (big, high up, bad vision etc). Shes the only one i know thats had a territory so only one oppinion, but if its true then maybe thats another reason to keep the wagon.

Also with the Sportwagon i think alot of people are forgeting that majority of people prefer Holdens, and would buy anything they make.

[ehast13]

Wagon serves a purpose. leaf springs rear end cops a load well. it's a 2008 panel van. Reps can load them up and not appear to have a flasher car than the managers' Berlina, fairmont/g6, territory ghia, prado etc. Ford didn't throw big bucks at the wagon platform like they did the sedan (still au from firewall back). It probably makes more per wagon than it does per sedan.

Think about it. Wagon still has leaf spring rear end. Basic ea/el rear sub structure remains (according to WHEELS magazine circa 1998). Even if you count it as an entirely new rear end, the roof pressings, side pressings were the only major parts individually designed for the car.

The rear susp was kinda shared with ute.
The rear doors were from the fairlane.
Everything else is falcon.
They haven't even changed the rear bumper since 1998 (the sedans had an update in 2000, 2002 and now the new fg).

At the time (1998) FOrd AUS reckoned it spent 40-50 million developing the new wagon and taming the 'hotchkiss' suspension.

Lets say the falc sold 400 wagons a month.

That is 4800 per year.

The same basic car (really what was spent on the ba/bf wagons that wasn't already spent on sedan/fairlane) has sold for 10 years.

That is 48,000 wagons

Lets say for spent 48 million bucks on the initial development over the sedan/ute/lwb. That is $1000 per car!

You reckon ford makes a grand per wagon? The old bus has payed for herself.

Territory was 500 ish million? (i dont know but i'm guessing it was lot because most parts are unique). It would have to sell 500,000 terrors before equalling the wagons r&d cost per unit ratio.

I know this is an oversimplified argument. The point is that ford must consider a wagon to be a real cash cow.

If that old leaf sprung repmobile/taxi helps keep ford aus alive then I say keep it. Don't even bother upgrading if you don't have to. As long as cops and reps and taxi drivers and ambos buy more than 100 per month of them, it'll be nearly pure profit per car.

Just my thoughts.

[Jack91]

Thats crazy, of course they need a wagon. Territory is too big and unnecessary, the wagons are just right. Im not sure here, but wouldnt the wagon have about the same fuel consumption as the sedan, and be a lot more versatile? If anything, ditch the territory and give the wagon a facelift.

[GK]

I was just looking at BA-BF wagons on Carsales! LOL!

Some great bargains to be had. Just wish I had the dosh!

No worries though, the AU1 Futura Wagon is still going strong!

I'd love a Territory, but the Falcon/Futura Wagon is a great bus!

GK

[vztrt]

I say keep the wagon. It does make money for Ford.

Mind you by 2010 it'll probably be gone. I'd say invest the money into getting an LPG territory in the lineup.

[Mr Hardware]

ehast13, game, set & match!

Well done. Whether ford should have a full wagon lineup is one decision, ford simply killing the wagon is another.
Full wagon lineup? Iffy.
Ford to kill the wagon. NO WAY.

Oh an probably keep a full-sized wagon too. The queensland ambulance service ordered 50 of the buggers 6 months ago cos the holden wagon was too small for what they wanted.
So it may be ford's time to shine as the true workhorse, kind of like the XF ute, when there's no real competition, you sell heaps!

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by 2008WhiteSR

[From the Ford website]

Falcon Wagon luggage capacity (rear seats up): 1260l
Territory luggage capacity (second row seats up): 1153l
Falcon sedan luggage capacity: 535l

Just a big Falcon and not a wagon? My rego papers say its a wagon. The Falcon wagon is 200mm longer than the Territory so it ought to have a larger capacity. It would be interesting to compare capacities with the Territory's second row down. It would be a very close result given the Territory's superior headroom. Easier to load? Depends how tall or short you are.

Being an ex rep for a long time ...... I always found its the floor space and not the height that was how I judged carrying capacity. Litres was **** factor, height meant nothing in most cases and all to do wil floor space or usable space rather than air.

Thats where the C'dore S'wagon fails and the Territory is not quite as good as the Facon wagon. You can only stack things so high in the Terrtory and the Sportswagon is usless for floor space ..... worse than a Falcon boot!



| [/url] |

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Antwon

My friends Mum had a Territory and she sold it because apparently it was slow, thirsty and hard to drive (big, high up, bad vision etc).

Couldn't be further from the truth. The Territory gets along quite well for a big bus and vision is excellent, large side mirrors, good vision out the back and sides and good view out the front. It drives just like a BA does, its just higher. It didn't win Wheels car of the year for no reason, they raved about how well it drove, so your friends mum must be an idiot. :

They are thirsty though.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by 93_eb_fairmont

Thats crazy, of course they need a wagon. Territory is too big and unnecessary, the wagons are just right. Im not sure here, but wouldnt the wagon have about the same fuel consumption as the sedan, and be a lot more versatile? If anything, ditch the territory and give the wagon a facelift.

Territory too big? Its smaller in length than the sedan, and a hell of a lot smaller than the wagon.

Why would they ditch the superior vehicle that sells in higher numbers?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ehast13

It probably makes more per wagon than it does per sedan.



I know this is an oversimplified argument. The point is that ford must consider a wagon to be a real cash cow.

It is a cash cow and thats the reason its still on sale. After the Territory was released wagon sales didn't really drop, and now the R&D is payed for they are all very profitable.

If sales stay where they are past next year then there's a chance it may cop the Euro 4 engine and 5 speed auto. It may end up like the old panel vans and XG/XH utes that continued on when the sedans had been replaced with all new models. Maybe. It just might also be a case that the number of sales it makes may not justify spending the development dollars for the new engine, and it may be killed off in July 2010 when the old Euro 3 engine is no longer legally allowed on sale.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It is a cash cow and thats the reason its still on sale. After the Territory was released wagon sales didn't really drop, and now the R&D is payed for they are all very profitable.

If sales stay where they are past next year then there's a chance it may cop the Euro 4 engine and 5 speed auto. It may end up like the old panel vans and XG/XH utes that continued on when the sedans had been replaced with all new models. Maybe. It just might also be a case that the number of sales it makes may not justify spending the development dollars for the new engine, and it may be killed off in July 2010 when the old Euro 3 engine is no longer legally allowed on sale.

But if the I6 (now that its staying) will be euro 4 compliant, couldn't that just be dropped in the wagon?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Kia Chaser

But if the I6 (now that its staying) will be euro 4 compliant, couldn't that just be dropped in the wagon?

It still needs development work, its not just a case of dropping it in. The FG engine also has a rear mounted sump which the wagon won't have, so that would need to be changed too, so its not such a simple job of taking out the old and putting in the new. It also needs the full NVH, driveability, hot/cold and durability testing as all models do.

[4Vman]

There will be an numerical economic break point where the current wagon will cease to remain viable to manufacture... only Ford will know what that magic number is... till they hit it consistantly with no chance of improvment in sales they'll happily continue to sell the current wagon.

[Spanrz]

The reason I keep buying Wagons (and still do), is that I can just shove crap in the back and "go".
Earlier this year, I shoved a 42" Plasma TV in the Wagon, didn't fit in the rear (by 1 inch..bugger). The lip was lower than the roof lining. If there was no lip, we would have had it in.
I ripped out the rear seat base and shoved the plasma in the rear seat area. Still dunno how it fitted, but it was tight.
Bit it still went in safely.

Now another purpose for the Wagon, is the wife gave me a great xmas gift. One that I had wanted for a very long time. So on Xmas day (online shopping), I bought a large telescope.
It's about 1500mm long and about 50kg's. Now everyone that buys these scopes, complains that they can't move them around easily. Bet they own sedans (etc).
However, I'm ready to rock and roll.

I buy the wagons for purpose. They are an oversized sedan. I don't think the Terri takes over the role of the Wagon, as they are marketed for the 4WD "feel", not a sedan "feel, the Wagon ownz the Terri for space.
The Terri is a lot heavier for the same engine. ra ra ra..

My views.!

[Pete from Port]

The western roads of NSW are full of Falcon wagons driven by reps. For someone working they are the way to go. Not to mention the leaf rear if towing.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by Spanrz

I don't think the Terri takes over the role of the Wagon, as they are marketed for the 4WD "feel", not a sedan "feel, the Wagon ownz the Terri for space.

Ah no wrong, the Territory is designed and marketed for the sedan 'feel' and exactly NOT for the 4WD 'feel'. I think you mean it has an SUV body. This has its advantages, the load height means you can fit taller objects in the cargo area and don't have to bend down so far to do it (good for aging backs!). The Terri will take a single bed in the cargo area (I've done it), the only drawback for furniture being the sloping rear which takes away from the height at the back.

IMO it's a marginal issue. Both have a niche role - depends whether the manufacturer can continue to support both but if one went it wouldn't be the Territory. If they extended the Territory a little so you could get a pram behind the third row and made the back a little more vertical to extend the interior vertical dimension it would be unbeatable as a wagon. But question with both is where to put the gas tank/spare combo?

Holden's wagon is pathetic though, what a joke, and the Captiva doesn't come near either (too narrow/cramped).

[4Vman]

I wonder how many territory critics/doubters have actually driven/lived with or owned one? My territory was the best all round vehicle ive ever owned, and ive owned nearly a dozen falcon/commodore wagons over the years.
It got lots of cargo space, in fact nearly as much as the falcon wagon and a driving position that gives you an abundance of clear view with a more comfortable higher seating position and leg room, in fact i found it was more comfortable and relaxing to drive day to day than the XR8, (especially with bad knees!).
Its handling and performance was every bit as good if not better than any 6cyl wagon ive owned.
If i was going to do allot of daily driving and need to carry stuff or a long trip with the family it would be my first choice of Ford vehicle without a doubt.
A VERY underrated vehicle, when its updated it will take off in sales again i'm sure.

[Spanrz]

Originally Posted by new2ford

The Terri will take a single bed in the cargo area (I've done it), the only drawback for furniture being the sloping rear which takes away from the height at the back. IMO it's a marginal issue. .

Without sounding standoff-ish, the Terri is an SUV in my books.
The wagon chews the Terri for space.
But yes, they have each of their own niche markets.
The Terri being a heavier car, with the same engine, means more fuel usage.

Though with all the minor differences adding up, I don't see how it can be a marginal issue (based on all round areas).

I have a 80-90kg toolbox, I find it perfect height to lift and place in the wagon, however in a Terri, it would be diffucult to do it because of the height difference.

The area where I think the Terri might take over on the wagon, is the way it handles, due to it's different centre of gravity, probable better stronger springs etc.
The XT wagon, does need stronger leafs / shocks IMO. They are too soft, with a lot of roll. Of all the wagons I've owned, this is a major issue. Too much body roll. After market springs fixes that (no reset of springs, just new ones).

Though I just read in herald sun today, the next gen of the VE wagon (R8), an XR8 version of the Falcon Wagon, is selling for the best part of $70,000.
Wonder if this will entice Ford to put up it's XR6/XR8 wagons again, but not the price tag!
Or did the F6 variant of Terri take that money?
Or even better, let FTG take over it's Wagon builds. (think it was the Tsunami?? they built) BTW wonder how that's goin!

[TUF_302]

It should stay as long as it keeps selling, they are great for fleet buyers like telstra, lots of large companies still use Falcon wagons and i think it would be stupid to kill them off!

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

It should stay as long as it keeps selling, they are great for fleet buyers like telstra, lots of large companies still use Falcon wagons and i think it would be stupid to kill them off!

Amen. Great basic vehicle.

But I don't want Ford to sell luxury or sports models at the insistence of a few people on Ford Forums. A Sportswagon is not the way.

I love the fact that Ford have pretty much kept their wagon for a trade market. They're people who truly appreciate the car for what it is.

I just wish more people would.

[BlackLS]

Perhaps update the BF wagon with FG nose and internals to make the XG/XH of the Falcon ute era? Or is that just not economical anymore.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Spanrz

The reason I keep buying Wagons (and still do), is that I can just shove crap in the back and "go".
Earlier this year, I shoved a 42" Plasma TV in the Wagon, didn't fit in the rear (by 1 inch..bugger). The lip was lower than the roof lining. If there was no lip, we would have had it in.
I ripped out the rear seat base and shoved the plasma in the rear seat area. Still dunno how it fitted, but it was tight.
Bit it still went in safely.

Must have been a massive box, my Dad and I just picked up a 46 inch TV a few weeks ago and it fitted in the back of the Territory with ease, were you trying to stand it upright?