Holden to Cut more Jobs

[Serial_Fool]

The reason why the headgasket problems developed in the E series was because of the headgasket material. The Au head wasn't radically different from the E series head but the AU engine used a Multi Layered Steel gasket instead of some cork crap.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

Talking about ignorance, jumped in a falcon taxi cab lately? i'm sure they have a lot more then 250,000kms on the clock and they don't seem to be falling apart.

Severely beg to differ - every one I've been in has something amiss with the trim, the diff whine is unbearable, and I usually catch one home every night from work.

Also the notion of the Falcon as being the taxi industry's car of choice is the definition of an Achilles heel - its not a good advertisement when you see the older clapped out pieces of falcon trash falling apart spilling coolant down Sussex street. Likewise, the "taxi" mocker has now been expanded to the entire falcon fleet - how often have we all heard "why do you drive a falcon - it’s a taxi"

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

people straight off think the Aussie product is of poor quality, and the imported stuff must be better.

Well it could be better, and the quality surveys support this too (from Drive.com.au)

[snappy]

Not good at all

[Swordsman88]

I'd be careful quoting anything from drive.com Dave_au....they aren't known to be that helpful as far as motoring journos go....

While the surveys certainly show poor results for Ford/Holden, i often like to ask myself, as with any of the many surveys and 'statistics' thrown around these days.....how did they get those numbers. Companies will always throw around lines like 'statistics show...' or 'independent research' but often upon deeper inspection (something most journos don't do these days) evidence is pretty limited.

The big problem with most of these surveys (not sure but i think the onde drive uses aswell) is they aren't truly independent. The data is collected based on surveys of the owners. You simply fill out a questionaire.... Now for a car to 'have a fault' in the first 5 months, the owner/driver has to recognise it. You may note that many japanese/korean brands top the list.....we'd like to think it is because their cars are very well built (which most are), but it could simply be there drivers don't know a fault unless it was a major engine explosion! I've heard stories of camry drivers (not the most automotively informed) thinking auto gearbox failures are 'normal', being hit up for thousands of dollars worth of repairs at the 'peace of mind service' at 3 months because of 'misuse'. Warranty repairs during this service period....if the owner doesn't notice or think its standard, won't come up on the questionaire.

I'm not saying Fords are better than toyotas, i'm simply saying the service has very little merit in my eyes. Much more detailed analysis by indpendent companies are more worthwhile, but in australia these are for industry only, unlike the US/Europe. Those reports show very good outcomes by Ford US for example. Toyota has actually performed quite badly in many of the US reports....a stark contrast to the aussie results, even though toyotas are basically identical in all markets. How is this so, its not likely Ford US is producing more reliable cars than ford Aus is it? Isn't the Fiesta a european built car, and it has a very good rep in europe for reliability i've been told????

There is also a big difference between 5 months and 5-15 years....long term reliability (mechanically at least) of a basically maintained Falcon is outstanding actually.....not too many 15 year old Korean built cars with good mechanicaly reliablity now is there??? It's all relative.

[snappy]

If the statistics are correct. Its proof that ford need to lift there game for the first 5 months is crucial for the perception of reliabilty they are almost on the bottom of every list. Which unfortunately does not suprise me after the very first fg i saw was on the side of the princess hwy hazard lights on bonnet up and some fella on the phone.
Also after the problems i had with my ba in the early stages ,Handbrake,cluthes,Brakes,leather lifting and unexplained noises all before the first 15k service buy the time i had done 12,000km i had to spend nearly 3 grand getting things fix . Think what you like about how i drove it but i know the truth. No company can afford to make there name this way. I still remember how embarrased i was to tell people.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I'd be careful quoting anything from drive.com Dave_au....they aren't known to be that helpful as far as motoring journos go....

While the surveys certainly show poor results for Ford/Holden, i often like to ask myself, as with any of the many surveys and 'statistics' thrown around these days.....how did they get those numbers. Companies will always throw around lines like 'statistics show...' or 'independent research' but often upon deeper inspection (something most journos don't do these days) evidence is pretty limited.

The big problem with most of these surveys (not sure but i think the onde drive uses aswell) is they aren't truly independent. The data is collected based on surveys of the owners. You simply fill out a questionaire.... Now for a car to 'have a fault' in the first 5 months, the owner/driver has to recognise it. You may note that many japanese/korean brands top the list.....we'd like to think it is because their cars are very well built (which most are), but it could simply be there drivers don't know a fault unless it was a major engine explosion! I've heard stories of camry drivers (not the most automotively informed) thinking auto gearbox failures are 'normal', being hit up for thousands of dollars worth of repairs at the 'peace of mind service' at 3 months because of 'misuse'. Warranty repairs during this service period....if the owner doesn't notice or think its standard, won't come up on the questionaire.

I'm not saying Fords are better than toyotas, i'm simply saying the service has very little merit in my eyes. Much more detailed analysis by indpendent companies are more worthwhile, but in australia these are for industry only, unlike the US/Europe. Those reports show very good outcomes by Ford US for example. Toyota has actually performed quite badly in many of the US reports....a stark contrast to the aussie results, even though toyotas are basically identical in all markets. How is this so, its not likely Ford US is producing more reliable cars than ford Aus is it? Isn't the Fiesta a european built car, and it has a very good rep in europe for reliability i've been told????

There is also a big difference between 5 months and 5-15 years....long term reliability (mechanically at least) of a basically maintained Falcon is outstanding actually.....not too many 15 year old Korean built cars with good mechanicaly reliablity now is there??? It's all relative.

My wife's decision to buy a Mazda 2 (from new) was actually swayed by the same stats quoted above from drive.com.au... I can't say it has been faultless. The BF I have (purchased at 35,000km - in other words, I'm not sure how faultless it was from new) hasn't till this day - almost 80,000km - given me any grief I can recall... so I'd take these stats with a table spoon of salt.

Granted, the B series did have problems, especially the early builds. Ford should have prolonged it's R&D instead of hastily releasing it. Hindsight.


As for the loss of jobs... the big picture is GM has concluded RWD isn't where the markets headed. Simple as that. Ford will most likely follow suit, which does threaten the Falcon as we know it, some will say, but I can't see RWD getting abandoned altogether... Commodore is still no1 in sales. Falcon is still 2/3 in sales. This speaks volumes. Just because the large car percentage has suffered, it doesn't mean it will get any worse... I think, just maybe, it's stabilised.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

My wife's decision to buy a Mazda 2 (from new) was actually swayed by the same stats quoted above from drive.com.au... I can't say it has been faultless. The BF I have (purchased at 35,000km - in other words, I'm not sure how faultless it was from new) hasn't till this day - almost 80,000km - given me any grief I can recall... so I'd take these stats with a table spoon of salt.

Granted, the B series did have problems, especially the early builds. Ford should have prolonged it's R&D instead of hastily releasing it. Hindsight.


As for the loss of jobs... the big picture is GM has concluded RWD isn't where the markets headed. Simple as that. Ford will most likely follow suit, which does threaten the Falcon as we know it, some will say, but I can't see RWD getting abandoned altogether... Commodore is still no1 in sales. Falcon is still 2/3 in sales. This speaks volumes. Just because the large car percentage has suffered, it doesn't mean it will get any worse... I think, just maybe, it's stabilised.

Your wife's experience with the mazda 2 is typical of many Falc'man....sure the japanese cars are usually very good, but to suggest they are 'faultless' to the degree the survey noted pushes logic i think. Given the compelxity of mondern cars i'd doubt if you were REALLY picky any car would get to 5 months without a fault. God knows what the survey says 'is a fault' anyway....abuse a car and things do 'fail' pretty quickly.

For example, does a piece of trim off the interior developing a rattle count as a 'fault' (i can remember my old man having squeaks and rattles looked at when his AU went in for a service, just to see if the ford guys could find where it was coming from - yes we had a good ford service dept back then LOL!), or is it a major mechanical issue?? As for the BA, yes they should have waited for more testing, but we all know why they didn't (AU anyone....). FG seems to have been much better, the odd niggle here and there, but nothing major....so far.

Back on topic, while its nice to think the large cars have stopped dropping its hard to work out what the true size of the segment is. It might be even lower....its certainly not related to fuel prices, so one can't be sure where the market will end up. The problem is worldwide the large 4 door RWD is not looking good, and this hurts Holden/Ford Aus because that is what they specialise in engineering/production wise. If they can't export to the overseas markets, then you can still build focus platform cars and export to keep the plant going. But engineering wise you would have little to do.....other than some niche market development. Would be a shame to lose that engineering talent behind FG/VE etc.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

Back on topic, while its nice to think the large cars have stopped dropping its hard to work out what the true size of the segment is. It might be even lower....its certainly not related to fuel prices, so one can't be sure where the market will end up. The problem is worldwide the large 4 door RWD is not looking good, and this hurts Holden/Ford Aus because that is what they specialise in engineering/production wise. If they can't export to the overseas markets, then you can still build focus platform cars and export to keep the plant going. But engineering wise you would have little to do.....other than some niche market development. Would be a shame to lose that engineering talent behind FG/VE etc.

There will always be a market for the rwd, always. Plus I can't see how the Euros (Merc/BMW/Jag/etc) changing to anything else. Nor can I see the Americans abandoning it, although GM has decided to pull the pin on GRWD. The point I think was raised by one of the members here, I can't remember who (maybe Bossxr8?), Ford Au should make the Falcon range "all premium"... no XT's, just have the XR range and G-series. Maybe this is the way to go? Perhaps Ford Au will do this, seeing they've gotten rid of the "old" Fairmont badge will they eventually kill the 'old' Falcon badge? And to top it off, they have incorporated alot Euro elements into it's design, so maybe the do know where the market is headed in terms of rwd.

[XR Martin]

Ive driven plenty of late model Jap cars with anything from 8km - 50000km and they all squeek and rattle as much if not more than the locals.
Drove a 5000km old Prius and it felt like it rattled more than my 285k km EL....Maybe it was just the fact it was so quiet inside that you could hear them all...
Tarago with 7000 kms had a massive rattle in the dash that sounded like a bee was stuck in there, thankfully I had to drive it only 10 kms because it was driving me insane.
I could go on....
Drove a BA with 50k kms and was quite surprised, sure it had the odd rattle but not as worse as some Japs that ive driven recently.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by chich

Ah yes, so using cheap labour to build cars makes them reliable all of a sudden does it? Funny how a Corolla, Camry or any Honda, built with cheap casual temp labour as you say, can keep on going strong with 250,000kms on the clock whereas the Falconadore's are blowing head gaskets, leaking oil everywhere & are just about falling apart.

Its this sort of ignorance that has driven the local industry into the wall - head in the sand & she'll be right mate.

When the Japanese & Europeans were focusing on expanding their engineering knowledge, developing new manufacturing techniques & investing in new materials, the Aussies & Yanks sat on their high horses & preeched to the world that they knew best. They gambled & they lost big time - now its time for them to bend over & cop it sweet.

Um I have a XE with 850,000 on the clock never missed a beat and I daresay half the Falcadores on the road have 250,000 plus.

My AU goes strong despite often being taken drifting copping limiter bouncing and neutral slapping. My uncles property has close to a 100 cars of all makes and I guarantee you Camrys and Corollas are hopeless paddock bashers dead within days. XD's and XE's are unburstable.

The best Jap cars are Nissans and Mazdas. Cruisers are good but Toyota passenger cars are hopeless.

As for engineering????? Compare the FG Falcon to the Aurion/Camry. Despite being built on a global platform with a parent making billions in profit, being smaller and over 200 kilos lighter with a gobal engine the Aurion/Camry is less safe, handles like a bucket of , is slower, offers nowhere near the number of variants, nowhere near the suspension sophistication and uses barely less fuel than the old Aussie Falcon slapped together out the back of Melbourne and slotted with a low-production cast-iron six from Geelong.

Quality surveys are rubbish too. They barely survey a thousand people and in fact in Europe and America Ford is up the top of surveys.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Well it could be better, and the quality surveys support this too (from Drive.com.au)

Falcon scores exactly the same as German designed Volkswagens and out scores a Japanese car. Pretty strong endorsement if you ask me

[snappy]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Falcon scores exactly the same as German designed Volkswagens and out scores a Japanese car. Pretty strong endorsement if you ask me

Where did you see that there below average in every catergory . Also last or second last in nearly every catergory. Well least there consistent well consistently bad in comparison. If the want to grow they need to address this.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Well it could be better, and the quality surveys support this too (from Drive.com.au)

Pffft, statistics can be used to prove anything Kent, fourteenth percent of all people know that.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by snappy84

Where did you see that there below average in every catergory . Also last or second last in nearly every catergory. Well least there consistent well consistently bad in comparison. If the want to grow they need to address this.

Falcon is the same as Volkswagen Polo and Bettle and scores higher than Suzuki Grand Viagra.

But besides the point you have no knowledge of the sample size or what constitutes" faults therefore you cant take anything away from this except the pretty layout.

Eg. 51% of Falcons might have a misaligned interior panel and 21% of Nissan Maxima's catch on fire which is the poorer quality?

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Falcon is the same as Volkswagen Polo and Bettle and scores higher than Suzuki Grand Viagra.

But besides the point you have no knowledge of the sample size or what constitutes" faults therefore you cant take anything away from this except the pretty layout.

Eg. 51% of Falcons might have a misaligned interior panel and 21% of Nissan Maxima's catch on fire which is the poorer quality?

The actual stats are from JD Power's first quality survey of the Australian car market, based on 3000 owners. The are what they are - the only apparently impartial survey of new car owners, and the results for both Ford and Holden are quite disapointing.

More here

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=49101

and here

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...=39115&IsPgd=0

And another chart:

JD Power Australian Vehicle Ownership Satisfaction Study - Overall nameplate ranking
(Based on a 1000-point scale) Mazda 780
Honda 775
Toyota 772
Industry average 762
Mitsubishi 757
Subaru 755
Nissan 751
Hyundai 750
Kia 744
Ford 743
Holden 736

NB: Most other manufacturers were included in the study but not ranked due to a too small sample size.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

The actual stats are from JD Power's first quality survey of the Australian car market, based on 3000 owners. The are what they are - the only apparently impartial survey of new car owners, and the results for both Ford and Holden are quite disapointing.

More here

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...rticleID=49101

and here

http://www.drive.com.au/Editorial/Ar...=39115&IsPgd=0

And another chart:

JD Power Australian Vehicle Ownership Satisfaction Study - Overall nameplate ranking
(Based on a 1000-point scale) Mazda 780
Honda 775
Toyota 772
Industry average 762
Mitsubishi 757
Subaru 755
Nissan 751
Hyundai 750
Kia 744
Ford 743
Holden 736

NB: Most other manufacturers were included in the study but not ranked due to a too small sample size.

So the best is Mazda at 78% and 22%
And the worst is Holden at 73.6% and 25.4%

Hardly a massive difference? 3.5% between the whole lot

[HUNTER8]

Anyone care to explain why, if these stats mean so much, why Nissan Maxima sales figures are crap?

[chich]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

FYI the pre AU heads (the ones that did blow head gaskets) were actually a Honda design.

FYI - there is nothing wrong with the design of the pre-AU head, its the gasket material. You want to take a guess who manufactured them?

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

Its your kind of ignorance which is killing the local industry. people straight off think the Aussie product is of poor quality, and the imported stuff must be better.

In most cases the imported stuff is better - thats the reality of the situation. Better built, more reliable, better resale, better dealership network etc etc.

The Aussie manufacturers have definitely come a long way in the past 10 to 15 years, but not far enough. You can argue all you want but at the end of the day the proof is in the sale figures.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by chich

The Aussie manufacturers have definitely come a long way in the past 10 to 15 years, but not far enough. You can argue all you want but at the end of the day the proof is in the sale figures.

Commodore best built car in Oz then.....

[XR Martin]

More enthusiasts own Ford and Holdens, enthusiasts will generally pick up faults more easily than a non enthusiast.
Ive been in a passenger with a few people who are clueless about cars, and had to point out things which arnt normal or working properly. Most of the time they either dont care, or couldnt be bothered trying to get it fixed. One example, I had to point out to someone that the trip meter in their car isnt supposed to be resetting everytime they restart the car. They still havnt got it fixed.
But you can bet in the same situation, most of us would be on the phone to the dealer the first instance of a problem.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

More enthusiasts own Ford and Holdens, enthusiasts will generally pick up faults more easily than a non enthusiast.
Ive been in a passenger with a few people who are clueless about cars, and had to point out things which arnt normal or working properly. Most of the time they either dont care, or couldnt be bothered trying to get it fixed. One example, I had to point out to someone that the trip meter in their car isnt supposed to be resetting everytime they restart the car. They still havnt got it fixed.
But you can bet in the same situation, most of us would be on the phone to the dealer the first instance of a problem.

You make a very good point....and it is one people keep ignoring with this debate. If you survey OWNERS of cars, you can't be sure they have a clue what a 'FAILURE' even is. The whole debate is amateurish in my opinion anyway - as an example of reliability you can also look at recalls. This is because they are announced by the companies when a problem gets to a stage, whether the consumers or the company has located it, that it breaches government guidelines. Holden has had quite a few recalls in recent years, but so has toyota. Ford has been going quite well actually, so what you do you trust?

[EgoFG]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

The actual stats are from JD Power's first quality survey of the Australian car market, based on 3000 owners.

hmmm ....

3000 owners 60 car models listed
50 of each model
or was it skewed by market share
... or by cost of car
were there checks to ensure that the vehicle usage was comparable (km) - or at least average for the model
was it a voluntary participation deal - was there a reward for replying
was evidence required of the defect
were the cars inspected for unreported defects
why 5 months, not say 6 (a much rounder figure)
why not rate the defects in dollars

this, in the Aust car business is a VERY small survey - what % is 50 cars of corolla, Falc or commy sales ? less than 2% ?

Should we even waste our time reading this trash ?