Falcon doomed from 2010

[DoreSlamR]

Just thought I would add my 2cents worth, I quickly read the replys so I apologise if I am just repeating what someone said.

- Hybrids are a bandaid/stop gap fix, they have no place on Australian roads, they may be enviromentally friendly for the 5-10 years they're in service but then what? What are we going to do with all those batteries?? And god help anyone if a hybrid catches on fire!

- Bio-deisel is the future, particularly for the transport industry. Speaking from my location (South West WA), we have a biodeisel plant. We also have a failing dairy industry. Now I'm blessed with a bit of horticultural knowledge and know, for a fact, canolla will grow very well in areas known to be used as dairy farming land. Now you don't have to be a rocket surgeon or a Brain scientist to realise the huge potential that is sitting right there. The government should assist these farmers to transist their land into canola crops instead of throwing our tax dollars into something that come 2010 , will be almost obsolete.

:

[Bossxr8]

Just said on the news it will take more than 7 years to make the $5000 more expensive Hybrid Camry back in fuel savings.

And the Government is subsidising the car to the tune of $70 million of our tax dollars. Thats probably more money than the 10,000 cars they want to build a year cost. So how is this going to save anyone a cent?

Hybrids are nothing but a scam, but you can imagine a whole bunch of brainless greenies buying them thinking they are saving the planet, or people thinking it is saving them heaps in petrol dollars when it reality its not saving them anything at all in the short to medium term.

There's got to be a better way.


Does anyone know if Ford US is building a Hybrid version of the V6, cause i'm pretty sure they are but I can't confirm that. Can anyone else.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

There's got to be a better way.

Convert your XR8 to SVI inject LPG. After you get the $2,000 rebate back the net conversion cost of about $2,400 will be recovered in about 6 months, maybe a bit less. You'll halve your fuel bill, so work it out yourself.

Power and driveability is indistinguishable from petrol, and it'll cost about the same to run as a Camry.

All you will lose will be some boot space. Get a round tank for the spare wheel well and throw in a space saver, and you'll still have access through the fold-down back seat.

Why does that not sound like a better way?

[jabba]

Bossxr8... I agree with your comment about the current Hybrids,,, I looked a buying a Honda Civic for the miss's a few months ago, and decided to was not viable. Very little savings for a high purchest cost... But the GM Volt will go 45miles on straight electricity from the batteries before the petrol needs to kick in to generate power to charge the batteries. At which it's economy is 55mpg.... Now 45mile is about 60km. For the average driver they will not cover 60klm in a day. So at night or when ever at home you plug into the power point and recharge the batteries (3hrs charge cycle)....
If my wife used this car, she would litery never need fill the tank with petrol..

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by yanknbank

Our Dear Leader would like too replace the com car fleet with 4,000 Prius's or it's equivalent. Populist claptrap .

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/edito...asp?NewsID=188

Very interesting read. Thanks for that.

Building a Toyota Prius causes more environmental damage than a Hummer that is on the road for three times longer than a Prius. As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

When you pool together all the combined energy it takes to drive and build a Toyota Prius, the flagship car of energy fanatics, it takes almost 50 percent more energy than a Hummer - the Prius’s arch nemesis.

Through a study by CNW Marketing called “Dust to Dust,” the total combined energy is taken from all the electrical, fuel, transportation, materials (metal, plastic, etc) and hundreds of other factors over the expected lifetime of a vehicle. The Prius costs an average of $3.25 per mile driven over a lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid.

The Hummer, on the other hand, costs a more fiscal $1.95 per mile to put on the road over an expected lifetime of 300,000 miles. That means the Hummer will last three times longer than a Prius and use less combined energy doing it.

I love the "lifetime of 100,000 miles - the expected lifespan of the Hybrid" bit. How many Australian cars get chucked away after 160,000kms? Think about the resale consequences of this for a moment.

[Abacus]

Anyways, back on topic.

So the Falcon is doomed in 2010 because Toyota is going to build hybrid Camrys here, and Holden may (or may not) build a hybrid Commodore???

No chance.

I'm not saying the Falcon will live forever, but the hybrids won't be the reason for its demise.

[KenW]

our fleet of trucks run on LNG making huge savings on fuel only uses diesel as a "spark plug"

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Convert your XR8 to SVI inject LPG. After you get the $2,000 rebate back the net conversion cost of about $2,400 will be recovered in about 6 months, maybe a bit less. You'll halve your fuel bill, so work it out yourself.

Power and driveability is indistinguishable from petrol, and it'll cost about the same to run as a Camry.

All you will lose will be some boot space. Get a round tank for the spare wheel well and throw in a space saver, and you'll still have access through the fold-down back seat.

Why does that not sound like a better way?

I was talking from a mass production sense, but i'll be buying an FG XR6 Turbo later in the year and if petrol continues to rise above $2 a litre I will probably switch it to injected LPG at a later point. Makes so much more sense than this Hybrid crap.

The industry minister will be flying to Detroit tommorow to talk to GM and Ford about making hybrids, and they are seen to be responsive to it, so maybe all the aussie manufacturers will go this way, even though it doesn't make one cent of sense it would be corporate suicide not to do it, especially with the government throwing big buckets of cash at it as incentives.

[TUF_302]

2010 is the year Ford is brinning out the Diesel Falcon, so its not like we wont have a chance of competing

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

2010 is the year Ford is brinning out the Diesel Falcon, so its not like we wont have a chance of competing

Seen the price of diesel lately?

[tetgreg888]

I dont see how electric cars can be called GREEN cars, as we burn coal and gas to make our electricity and that aint renewable or good for the environment, WTF!!!!!!

[uranium_death]

Toyota has appealed to people who have not scratched the real surface of environmental issues and sounds like we have one already with the Toyota Prius and it's nickel-laden battery.

I am sure that if you had a front-page article with this "dead zone" as a direct consequence of supplying the Prius with power, I think you may find a few people jumping off the "Green Car" bandwagon.

I will not consider an electric car as I see them as a vehicle of gesture rather than solution.

If humans really wanted to save the world, we'd destroy ourselves as we are the greatest environmental threat. We de-forest areas, render species extinct everyday, pollute, contaminate and destroy without regret. It is only when things become bad that we take action.

The reality is cars are not designed to be green. They are a crude yet effective means of transport.
They will continue to pollute in their own way for a long time. There are other ways to reduce emissions, like turning off your TV/stereo/radio/lights/anything electric when you aren't using it.

I'd rather drive a Falcon that polutes, than the romantic Prius or Electric-Camry, which could be replicated by putting a motor on my fridge and stapling a matress to.

[mcflux]

You fools! Ford have been selling hybrids for years! Ford Marketing just haven't told us.

[OJ_Pursuit]

Electric cars still need electricity to charge, and electricity is still made with fossil fuels for the most part. Hybrid cars still use petrol.
One thing that puzzles me though, I thought that gas pockets usually formed above crude oil deposits underground, so if there is plenty of gas to be had from the NW shelf, why is there not also crude oil being produced? or have I got it totally wrong?
Seems to me the only thing keeping oil prices high are the durker durkers...

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Abacus

Convert your XR8 to SVI inject LPG. After you get the $2,000 rebate back the net conversion cost of about $2,400 will be recovered in about 6 months, maybe a bit less. You'll halve your fuel bill, so work it out yourself.

Power and driveability is indistinguishable from petrol, and it'll cost about the same to run as a Camry.

All you will lose will be some boot space. Get a round tank for the spare wheel well and throw in a space saver, and you'll still have access through the fold-down back seat.

Why does that not sound like a better way?

Unfortunately this will not work.

The ONLY reason that LPG is cheaper is it has less tax/excise.

The more cars that run on LPG the less that run on petrol/diesel.
The less petrol/diesel, the less tax income for the greedy grubs.
Solution: Increase tax on LPG to make up the difference so LPG goes up.

Anyone who thinks that the greedy grubs will do ANYTHING that reduces their income is living in lala land.....

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by OJ_Pursuit

Electric cars still need electricity to charge, and electricity is still made with fossil fuels for the most part. Hybrid cars still use petrol.

True, but as Sly posted in another thread:

Originally Posted by sly

FWIW a workmate who used to design & build power stations and knows a bit about generation, tells me that many hundreds of excess megawatt hours are generated and dumped to ground during off-peak hours, because of the time it takes to shut down and restart boilers and synchronise the generators as they come back online. It's just not viable to switch baseload capacity off & back on, so it just keeps going. As admirable as the aim of "Earth Hour" is, it saves not a single kg of CO2 for this reason. This off-peak excess could top up an awful lot of plug-in hybrids before needing any extra coal burnt.

Originally Posted by OJ_Pursuit

One thing that puzzles me though, I thought that gas pockets usually formed above crude oil deposits underground, so if there is plenty of gas to be had from the NW shelf, why is there not also crude oil being produced? or have I got it totally wrong?

Yes and no. You also get LPG in natural gas fields, and you can find natural gas in the absence of oil or petroleum gas.

[Jase_Boss]

Why don't FORD Oz bolt this into our performance range??????????

Would be sensational : :



The Ford F-250 Super Chief concept takes truck leadership to a new level – as the world's first vehicle with Tri-Flex fueling, enabling the supercharged V-10 to run for 500 miles between fill-ups on hydrogen, E85 ethanol or gasoline.

Running on hydrogen, the supercharged V-10 engine provides up to 12 percent fuel economy improvement on an energy equivalent basis versus a non-supercharged gasoline V-10 – and nearly 500 miles per fill-up.
Using hydrogen, the Tri-Flex V-10 produces 400 lb.-ft. of torque and 99 percent less CO2 than using gasoline. Ford flex-fuel vehicles offer the customer convenience of filling one tank with E85 and/or gasoline.

The transition from hydrogen fuel power to either E85 or gasoline is handled seamlessly through a dashboard-mounted switch and can occur while the vehicle is in operation.

[ZA-289]

I can't see the Falcon being on showroom floors in 20 years at all. It saddens me deeply ;(

Unless Ford do a huge back flip in the next few years, shed some size & weight and install a 4 banger/ decent LPG 6 / Use cylinder shut down technology. Its the size and weight of the falcon that will always give it terrible fuel consumption figures.

[asusdragon]

hopefully technology can advance a fair bit and then hydrogen falcon would be nice i would buy one, but as i said technology would need a bit of advancement before we see it as a viable options for a passeger car.

[Jase_Boss]

Originally Posted by asusdragon

hopefully technology can advance a fair bit and then hydrogen falcon would be nice i would buy one, but as i said technology would need a bit of advancement before we see it as a viable options for a passeger car.

The technology is there, the major issue is the hydrogen infrastructure will take the most to roll out, this tri fuel model would be a good transition power plant, and the E85 will reduce our reliance on the oil thieves, sorry companies.

Hey some of us on here need to have some positive thoughts.

[351capri]

the technology is available for cng (compressed natural gas) with home refill stations. ford actually started to delve into this way back in 1997. see attachment we have plenty of the stuff. we sell it to china for sweet f a . if the govt was serious and made it viable for ford , im sure they could have a model up and running before toyota built any hybrids in oz.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by jas573

Why don't FORD Oz bolt this into our performance range??????????

Would be sensational : :



The Ford F-250 Super Chief concept takes truck leadership to a new level – as the world's first vehicle with Tri-Flex fueling, enabling the supercharged V-10 to run for 500 miles between fill-ups on hydrogen, E85 ethanol or gasoline.

Running on hydrogen, the supercharged V-10 engine provides up to 12 percent fuel economy improvement on an energy equivalent basis versus a non-supercharged gasoline V-10 – and nearly 500 miles per fill-up.
Using hydrogen, the Tri-Flex V-10 produces 400 lb.-ft. of torque and 99 percent less CO2 than using gasoline. Ford flex-fuel vehicles offer the customer convenience of filling one tank with E85 and/or gasoline.

The transition from hydrogen fuel power to either E85 or gasoline is handled seamlessly through a dashboard-mounted switch and can occur while the vehicle is in operation.

It would be cool to edit the PCM to have the blower working under all fuel types

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by Abacus

I don't see the connection.

GMs chairman has said on a number of occassions that GM loses money on every hybrid car they produce.

GM Volt

I would rather see Ford focus on getting a state of the art Liquid Injection LPG system up and running on the 2010 V6. It would be less expensive, more marketable, and more profitable han a hybrid.

A next generation LPG system would make perfect sense and a good choice for most people. My worry is that most people don't understand the benefits of LPG and think it is already so "yesterday" when all they hear is hybrids or electric. Never mind the reality.

Ford would have to spend a LOT of money to convince the public of the benefits of LPG to get over the idea that it wasn't cool or green enough.

Ironically Holden getting into LPG is a good thing. Ford and Holden could work on promoting LPG together. At the end of the day Toyota is hammering them both at the moment and they have a common interest in keeping large cars viable.

Dan

[351capri]

sorry cant get attachment to work. go to google ... natural gas cars..

[bodes-sh]

Originally Posted by 351capri

the technology is available for cng (compressed natural gas) with home refill stations. ford actually started to delve into this way back in 1997. see attachment we have plenty of the stuff. we sell it to china for sweet f a . if the govt was serious and made it viable for ford , im sure they could have a model up and running before toyota built any hybrids in oz.

the problem at the moment with cng is, where are you going to fill your car if you go travelling? and also as said before, the range of it. i have a document at work that I will post up tomorrow, that says after an overnight fill at home an average size car (i'd say probable focus or mondeo or similar) gets about 160km on a tank. it doesn't say how big this tank is, but i'd sure as hell like to go a bit further than 160km after filling my tank all night. i'd also like to be able to fill it somewhere when travelling interstate.

the gov't needs to set up the infrastructure before this will be a viable fuel. would be ok for city commuting, but not for long distance travelling, lpg on the other hand is a lot more readily available, which at this point in time makes it a more viable fuel.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by bodes-sh

the problem at the moment with cng is, where are you going to fill your car if you go travelling? and also as said before, the range of it. i have a document at work that I will post up tomorrow, that says after an overnight fill at home an average size car (i'd say probable focus or mondeo or similar) gets about 160km on a tank. it doesn't say how big this tank is, but i'd sure as hell like to go a bit further than 160km after filling my tank all night. i'd also like to be able to fill it somewhere when travelling interstate.

the gov't needs to set up the infrastructure before this will be a viable fuel. would be ok for city commuting, but not for long distance travelling, lpg on the other hand is a lot more readily available, which at this point in time makes it a more viable fuel.

In the absence of some kind of "quick fill" technology, the only way I can see CNG working is with some kind of "Swap and Go" system, where drivers physically remove the empty CNG tank from their car and replace it with a full one one from specially equipped service stations. This would require some kind of purpose designed vehicle and specialised equipment.

It could work, in theory, but it would require massive amounts of co-ordinated R&D, standards, and infrastructure development.

But yeah, as I said in the LI thread, CNG could have a role in hybrids, where the limited range wouldn't be such an issue.

[rodderz]

What about the energy required to make the components for an electric car, and the energy to plug it in of a night and recharge it? Plus the fact that Prius cars have radioactive components in their cars?

I think the pollies have fell hook line and sinker for Toyota's magnificent marketing ploy of only focusing on the positives...ie fuel savings and low carbon emissions, rather than the overall picture, such as forking out a heap more $$ to buy the thing, and investigating alternatives first.

A number of experts have already said diesel (the clean euro stuff which is better than here) is much better to run. If they can slot one in at not much extra expense over a petrol, they may be cheaper than a Prius which has a greater premium at the dealer.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by rodderz

A number of experts have already said diesel (the clean euro stuff which is better than here) is much better to run. If they can slot one in at not much extra expense over a petrol, they may be cheaper than a Prius which has a greater premium at the dealer.

It opens the old hoary chestnut though, what's a more viable fuel for cars, diesel or LPG?

LPG is always going to be a fraction the price of diesel. Even when you factor in diesel's better economy an LPG car is about 35% less expensive to fuel up, km for km.

[Abacus]

Originally Posted by ZA-289

I can't see the Falcon being on showroom floors in 20 years at all. It saddens me deeply ;(

Unless Ford do a huge back flip in the next few years, shed some size & weight and install a 4 banger/ decent LPG 6 / Use cylinder shut down technology. Its the size and weight of the falcon that will always give it terrible fuel consumption figures.

The 2010 V6 E-gas will have LPG injection of one kind or another, either SVI or LI.

There's no reason why they can't run DOD with it.

That should solve the problem for a while.

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by Abacus

It opens the old hoary chestnut though, what's a more viable fuel for cars, diesel or LPG?

LPG is always going to be a fraction the price of diesel. Even when you factor in diesel's better economy an LPG car is about 35% less expensive to fuel up, km for km.

Either are better than Hybrids, the diesel uses less fuel and the hybrid uses electricity from coal fired power stations.