Victoria Police Article

[HOON69]

His married

she's seeing someone in the force too

they both should of known better,but she left,and he did too only to turn around and go to her,meaning his in control of his actions he fully intended on scoring and she called half time.

charges are justified imho

He gave the constable bourbon after she had drank at least four cans of beer, making her drunker as the day went on, the court heard.

Later that night, a workmate noticed the constable was tired, drunk and unsteady on her feet, while the sergeant appeared happy and in control.

The fellow worker reluctantly agreed to take the sergeant home because he said he had nowhere to sleep.

But during the trip she did a u-turn and dropped him back at a friend's house, where the female constable was staying.

The court heard the constable had fallen asleep in her friend's lounge room fully clothed, but awoke to feel the sergeant touching her inappropriately and her pants partially off.

[Work Horse]

I'm not sure it's worth getting involved in the "facts" of this case based on one news report. Or the facts that can be read between the lines?

As to the general question of women drunk in public, I would always tell my sister and her friends not to get to drunk on nights out. That was because I knew for a fact there were low life, rapist, scum out there that would take advantage of them given the chance.

It never entered my head that if my sister, drank too much, dressed up for a night out or talked with men she was asking to be raped and really had her self to blame.

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread are as shocking as they are ill-informed. It's 2007 fellas not 1907.

[HOON69]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I'm not sure it's worth getting involved in the "facts" of this case based on one news report. Or the facts that can be read between the lines?
Some of the opinions expressed in this thread are as shocking as they are ill-informed. It's 2007 fellas not 1907.

even in half true his intentions were clear.

he should of known better.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Some of the opinions expressed in this thread are as shocking as they are ill-informed. It's 2007 fellas not 1907.

Some of them are well informed as well though. It's hardly shocking when commented on as it happens a lot.

It's a touchy subject though I must say.

As for the quote "He gave the constable bourbon after she had drank at least four cans of beer, making her drunker as the day went on, the court heard."
I hardly see that as substantial in any way. She could have asked for the drink, or he could have just passed it to her with no bad intentions.

[[Tonko]]

Originally Posted by Van D

Some of them are well informed as well though. It's hardly shocking when commented on as it happens a lot.

It's a touchy subject though I must say.

As for the quote "He gave the constable bourbon after she had drank at least four cans of beer, making her drunker as the day went on, the court heard."
I hardly see that as substantial in any way. She could have asked for the drink, or he could have just passed it to her with no bad intentions.

And she could have just said "No" to the bourbon, she would know when shes drunk/getting there...
Its not like he gave her a roofie or something...

[3vXT]

It doesn't matter if she was throwing back jim beam and cola's all day, then got on her knees and gave him a gobble before she left, he's still got no right to be messing around with her while she's asleep.

If one of your wives/girlfriends/daughters was drinking and flirting with a guy at a party, then later that night he dropped into your home, found her asleep, pulled her pants down to have a fiddle what would you do? Politely ask him to leave and then tell her she brought in on herself?
If i'm at a party with a drunken girl thats been flirting with me all day and then passes out, is it ok for me to feel her up? More importantly, is it her fault for putting ideas into my head?

Of course everyone needs to be responsible for their own actions, but based on that link she's done nothing wrong other than flirt with a guy thats not her boyfriend. FFS she left the party and was asleep at her friends place. I'm sure his story will probably be in line with what some of you guys are suggesting but that doesn't make it any more truthful than hers. With the information given in that link, what exactly makes you so sure that it was consentual (sp) sex?

I know i said i'd leave it alone but i am really really disappointed with some of the reactions on here, i thought you guys were better than that. I'm hardly a feminist or anything but i've at least got enough respect for women to judge an incident like this based on the information given instead of my opinions on the way some modern women behave.

[Work Horse]

What part of this don't you understand ken2903? :evil3:
Another quote in keeping with some of the opinions expressed here for you.

Originally Posted by Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali's

Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It's she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then it's a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. (laughs).
'If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.' Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it."

If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you're crazy. Isn't this true?

"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.

The policewomen was uncovered meat, what did she expect.
The policeman has a willy and was drinking, he cannot be held responsible for anything.

[Bobman]

Lol.

I think we should stop protecting and looking for excuses if females do the wrong thing and something happens to them. It's like saying "oh she can be drunk but not expect anything to happen". That's not how it works anymore. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions.

This is just as stupid as putting blame on Car drivers when a pedestrian just jumps out on the road.

[3vXT]

SHE WAS ASLEEP!!!
How can anyone put any blame on someone who gets assaulted in their sleep???

Originally Posted by Bobman

This is just as stupid as putting blame on Car drivers when a pedestrian just jumps out on the road.

If you are sleeping at a friends place and someone drives a car through the wall and runs over you, how much of it is you're fault?

Does it matter if you've been j-walking earlier in the day?

Does it matter how much you've been drinking?

[Bobman]

Ken,

I can see where you're coming from and I agree to a few points you raise.

However if she didn't flirt or kiss or accept alcohol, etc this may not have happened. This is far too common these days and people have to think ahead if something they do now will affect what happens in the near future. It's common sense.

I don't blame her for the actual "event" but I blame her for the "consequence" of her "actions" earlier.

[3vXT]

Ok, i will go as far as to say that there are cases where women have done things that make them more of a target but i can't see how that makes it their fault or how it applies to this incident. If she didn't flirt, kiss or accept alcohol she may as well have stayed at home. What is the point of people going to parties etc... if they can't have a good time without worrying about this kind of thing happening.

Originally Posted by Bobman

I don't blame her for the actual "event" but I blame her for the "consequence" of her "actions" earlier.

From what you're saying, the event was a consequence of her earlier actions.

I just can't see how anything she's done (once again, according to that link) makes her even partially responsible for being raped or 'felt up' or whatever he allegedly did. I've been to heaps of parties where women drink and flirt etc... are they all partially at fault if they get raped?

To me its like someone running a red light, hitting someone who had the right of way, and trying to blame them for being in the wrong spot at the wrong time.

I'm going to have to stop soon, i'm running out of automotive themed euphemisms

[Van D]

Originally Posted by ken2903

SHE WAS ASLEEP!!!
How can anyone put any blame on someone who gets assaulted in their sleep???

Mate, just calm a bit.

I see you're point, and IF that's the case, I do agree, what he did was really wrong. But read my post earlier about the experience i've had. I just find it hard to believe 100% that he was kissing her, then got her pants half off and then started touching her inappropriately before she even woke up.

I feel there's much more to the story than what's being told.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Ok, i will go as far as to say that there are cases where women have done things that make them more of a target but i can't see how that makes it their fault or how it applies to this incident. If she didn't flirt, kiss or accept alcohol she may as well have stayed at home. What is the point of people going to parties etc... if they can't have a good time without worrying about this kind of thing happening.

Having a good time has nothing to do with flirting and kissing mate. I've been out plenty of times and hooked up, and i've been out plenty where I haven't, all are (usually) fun. According to that link they both had partners, and for them to just randomly decide to do that one day I find hard to believe as well. You'd think there's been something going on between them earlier. I doubt a man would risk his marriage at a work event where friends and family were/had been because another girl was been flirty with him.

[3vXT]

I was so drunk once that a friend threw a bucket of water on me and i didn't wake up. If (for some very strange reason) he wanted to take my pants off i wouldn't have noticed.

Also even if they were seeing each other on the side, he's still done the wrong thing and its still an assault.

I'm not trying to change anyones point of view, i just think you're all crazy.

[BA_Turbs]

The point we're trying to make, which I think you're missing, is IF the facts have been reported correctly, what has occurred is both wrong and deplorable.

The issue that a few people seem to have is the validity of her version of events. Remember, in every contested court case there has to be at least one person lying. How do we know its the accused? The facts can't be taken as gospal in this instance, in my opinion.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I was so drunk once that a friend threw a bucket of water on me and i didn't wake up. If (for some very strange reason) he wanted to take my pants off i wouldn't have noticed.

That's passed out, not asleep.

As BA turbs said, if the report is true, then what he did is just plain wrong.

But that article has a MASSIVE bias and there's definitely more to it IMO.

[3vXT]

Well some people seem to be suggesting that if i woman kisses and flirts with a man, then she is partially to blame if he rapes her later on...
I know women that behave in the same way as the woman in that link is described and they are certainly not sluts.

[3vXT]

The story in the link sounds like a reporter's account of the opening statements of both sides of a court case. To me it sounded very much like the man was guilty but obviously not everyone sees it the same way.
If more information comes out, and its proven that it was in fact consenting sex (etc..) my opinions about women being allowed to flirt with others without getting raped won't change.

EDIT: I don't think she is but if its proven that she is lying, she deserves to be punished as far as the law allows and certainly isn't what i would consider to be a good enough person to be a police officer. (insert jokes about cops being jerks here)

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Lol.

I think we should stop protecting and looking for excuses if females do the wrong thing and something happens to them. It's like saying "oh she can be drunk but not expect anything to happen". That's not how it works anymore. .

Wow congratulations Bobman, I couldn't have imagined your crediblity slipping any more in my opinion, and you prove me wrong again, well done

Originally Posted by Bobman

Everyone should be responsible for their own actions.

So how is it your only talking about drunk women, and not the low life rapist scum that prey upon them?

[Bobman]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Wow congratulations Bobman, I couldn't have imagined your crediblity slipping any more in my opinion, and you prove me wrong again, well doneSo how is it your only talking about drunk women, and not the low life rapist scum that prey upon them?

Let's see here.

Men's rights are slipping each time an article like this comes up.

I'm not defending any scum at all. In fact I'm against lenient sentencing that we seem to have here.

However you need to learn how to spell. Let's not wear seat belts or drive to the limits, because after all - someone else should be to blame for our own misfortunes?

If women were more responsible with alcohol, they would not be vulnerable to such shortcomings in the parties that they attend. I am not at all talking about rapes that occur without any involvement from the female first. I am talking about girls who kiss, flirt, touch, tease and provoke a situation that should never happen at all.

By the way, I don't claim to have any credibility at all. I just deal with the facts in front of me.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Bobman

Let's see here.

Men's rights are slipping each time an article like this comes up.

I'm not defending any scum at all. In fact I'm against lenient sentencing that we seem to have here.

However you need to learn how to spell. Let's not wear seat belts or drive to the limits, because after all - someone else should be to blame for our own misfortunes?

If women were more responsible with alcohol, they would not be vulnerable to such shortcomings in the parties that they attend. I am not at all talking about rapes that occur without any involvement from the female first. I am talking about girls who kiss, flirt, touch, tease and provoke a situation that should never happen at all.

By the way, I don't claim to have any credibility at all. I just deal with the facts in front of me.

I may not agree with your opinion, but I defend your right to hold whatever opinion you wish.

I cannot see any differance between what you have posted in this thread and the ramblings of Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali's. The Sheik was criticised by all members of the Austrailian public. You are out of touch

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by Bobman

If women were more responsible with alcohol, they would not be vulnerable to such shortcomings in the parties that they attend. I am not at all talking about rapes that occur without any involvement from the female first. I am talking about girls who kiss, flirt, touch, tease and provoke a situation that should never happen at all.

Bobman + family



1000 posts, congratulations

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Bobman

I think we should stop protecting and looking for excuses if females do the wrong thing and something happens to them. It's like saying "oh she can be drunk but not expect anything to happen". That's not how it works anymore. Everyone should be responsible for their own actions.

This is just as stupid as putting blame on Car drivers when a pedestrian just jumps out on the road.

Originally Posted by Bobman

However if she didn't flirt or kiss or accept alcohol, etc this may not have happened. This is far too common these days and people have to think ahead if something they do now will affect what happens in the near future. It's common sense.

I don't blame her for the actual "event" but I blame her for the "consequence" of her "actions" earlier.

Originally Posted by Bobman

If women were more responsible with alcohol, they would not be vulnerable to such shortcomings in the parties that they attend. I am not at all talking about rapes that occur without any involvement from the female first. I am talking about girls who kiss, flirt, touch, tease and provoke a situation that should never happen at all.

Bobman, I'd like to think that most of what you have written is being misinterpreted and that you are not just blaming the sleeping woman.

I take it that you are saying that what she has done is let her guard down and has been exploited for it.

Further, the reason she, if totally innocent, could still take 1% of the blame is that she should be more aware of the environment she lives in and, being a cop, should be aware that there are dirty raping bastards out there who will drug and take advantage of women.

I am assuming that the following is an example of where you are coming from: "Bobman wouldn't show a heap of people his safe, leave the door open and expect nothing to go missing."

If that's your approach then yeah, I can understand it. The biggest thing in this woman's defence though is that she removed herself from the situation by going to a girlfriends house to sleep in a safe place. Given that she was drunk and made her way there, there is little comeback for the guy when he went out of his way to find her and carry things on.

If he had gone home, like a good little boy, and not been led by his cheating little pecker, he would not be in the situation he is in now - regardless of her incitement or lack thereof.

If she was an equal player in the game, the courts will determine that for us.

[clontarf_x]

The male officer was in control of his actions. The female officer was not.

It's a clear case to me? The pig took advantage of her whilst she was incapacitated

[Van D]

Originally Posted by clontarf_x

The male officer was in control of his actions. The female officer was not.

It's a clear case to me? The pig took advantage of her whilst she was incapacitated

We're more debating if the story is true.

The thing that worries me with women consuming a lot of alcohol, is that generally if they are VERY forward, flirty and make suggestive moves (or more), almost every guy in the building wants something to do with her (sounds harsh, but that seems the case most nights I go out).

If a guy does the same, he's usually considered a perv, sleeze etc by the majority of ladies there.

Now, i'm not debating whether that's fair or not (I couldn't really care about it), BUT with the general attitude of most guys towards scantily clad women who are drunk whilst being flirty with them, there can come some very bad actions and consequences.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Van D

We're more debating if the story is true.

The thing that worries me with women consuming a lot of alcohol, is that generally if they are VERY forward, flirty and make suggestive moves (or more), almost every guy in the building wants something to do with her (sounds harsh, but that seems the case most nights I go out).

If a guy does the same, he's usually considered a perv, sleeze etc by the majority of ladies there.

Now, i'm not debating whether that's fair or not (I couldn't really care about it), BUT with the general attitude of most guys towards scantily clad women who are drunk whilst being flirty with them, there can come some very bad actions and consequences.

I defend your right to hold whatever opinion you wish.

But FFS do not assume to speak for the rest of us.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I defend your right to hold whatever opinion you wish.

But FFS do not assume to speak for the rest of us.

The rest of who? Guys in bars/clubs?

I'm just speaking from experience. I usually go out about 3 times a week. And the ladies who are wearing little clothing and happy to drink a lot (and make a scene of it) definitely get the most attention.

I'm not saying from me, i've no interest in girls like that, but they certainly attract a lot of attention from a lot of other guys.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Van D

The rest of who? Guys in bars/clubs?

I don't understand the distinction your are making between guys in bars and men in general. I go out to clubs/bars. I've never taken advantage of anyone, because other guys do does not make it ok.

Originally Posted by Van D

I'm just speaking from experience. I usually go out about 3 times a week.

That's how you formed your opinion.

Originally Posted by Van D

And the ladies who are wearing little clothing and happy to drink a lot (and make a scene of it) definitely get the most attention.

I have visited countries were women will hiss or throw stones at other women for exposing a hand or ankle.
Some of the ladies you are talking about may show poor taste in your opinion, but it's a free country.

Originally Posted by Van D

I'm not saying from me, i've no interest in girls like that, but they certainly attract a lot of attention from a lot of other guys.

Attracting a lot of attention from guys=I want to be/have no defence when/deserve to be, raped by guys?
Not you, but "other" guys have no control when confronted by "the ladies who are wearing little clothing and happy to drink a lot". The "very bad actions and consequences", that can come are the fault of the women.

Sorry to keep going on about it, but how does this attitude differ from Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali's. Remember the Sheik?. He was defending the actions of those pack rapists in Sydney. You may remember what the court thought of the idea the victims brought on the attacks themselves. And what all media and any right minded person thought of the Sheiks defence;

Originally Posted by Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali's

Because a woman possesses the weapon of seduction. It is she who takes off her clothes, shortens them, flirts, puts on make-up and powder and takes to the streets, God protect us, dallying. It's she who shortens, raises and lowers. Then it's a look, then a smile, then a conversation, a greeting, then a conversation, then a date, then a meeting, then a crime, then Long Bay jail. (laughs).
'If I came across a rape crime – kidnap and violation of honour – I would discipline the man and order that the woman be arrested and jailed for life.' Why would you do this, Rafihi? He says because if she had not left the meat uncovered, the cat wouldn't have snatched it."

If you take a kilo of meat, and you don't put it in the fridge or in the pot or in the kitchen but you leave it on a plate in the backyard, and then you have a fight with the neighbour because his cats eat the meat, you're crazy. Isn't this true?

"If you take uncovered meat and put it on the street, on the pavement, in a garden, in a park or in the backyard, without a cover and the cats eat it, is it the fault of the cat or the uncovered meat? The uncovered meat is the problem.

I don't agree with you, the Sheik, or anyone else that blames a rape victim because they: choose to dress as they wish, enjoy a drink, or flirt with whomever they please. This is Australia 2007 not 1907. We are not some fundamentalist state living under Sharia law.

Just my opinion of course.

[Van D]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

I don't understand the distinction your are making between guys in bars and men in general. I go out to clubs/bars. I've never taken advantage of anyone, because other guys do does not make it ok.
That's how you formed your opinion. I have visited countries were women will hiss or throw stones at other women for exposing a hand or ankle.
Some of the ladies you are talking about may show poor taste in your opinion, but it's a free country.Attracting a lot of attention from guys=I want to be/have no defence when/deserve to be, raped by guys?
Not you, but "other" guys have no control when confronted by "the ladies who are wearing little clothing and happy to drink a lot". The "very bad actions and consequences", that can come are the fault of the women.

Sorry to keep going on about it, but how does this attitude differ from Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali's. Remember the Sheik?. He was defending the actions of those pack rapists in Sydney. You may remember what the court thought of the idea the victims brought on the attacks themselves. And what all media and any right minded person thought of the Sheiks defence;I don't agree with you, the Sheik, or anyone else that blames a rape victim because they: choose to dress as they wish, enjoy a drink, or flirt with whomever they please. This is Australia 2007 not 1907. We are not some fundamentalist state living under Sharia law.

Just my opinion of course.

Mate I never said it makes it their fault to be raped, please tell me where I said that? I said it WORRIES me because of the GENERAL attitude of many males at clubs/bars when they've had a drink as well. I didn't say they'd do anything to harm the female either, I just said their attitude.

Yes it's Australia, and a "free" country. But that doesn't change the fact that their are sick minded people out there.

And I, along with others in this thread, weren't discussing actual rape victims, but people who have sexual relations then feel guilty and call rape. If you read what I wrote earlier, it's happened to me with a girl I was with, except it was consensual and she was feeling guilty afterwards. How is that fair on the other guy, just because she couldn't face up to her actions?

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Van D

Mate I never said it makes it their fault to be raped, please tell me where I said that? I said it WORRIES me because of the GENERAL attitude of many males at clubs/bars when they've had a drink as well. I didn't say they'd do anything to harm the female either, I just said their attitude.

Yes it's Australia, and a "free" country. But that doesn't change the fact that their are sick minded people out there.

And I, along with others in this thread, weren't discussing actual rape victims, but people who have sexual relations then feel guilty and call rape. If you read what I wrote earlier, it's happened to me with a girl I was with, except it was consensual and she was feeling guilty afterwards. How is that fair on the other guy, just because she couldn't face up to her actions?

Whatever mate, you want to try and back pedal I'm not interested in pulling more of your posts apart. Anyone can read them for themselves and make up their own mind.

I'm not interested in "the facts" of the case reported in the first post. Neither am I interested in "the facts" you claim to have regarding a friend of yours. Except to say your friend never took her complaint to the police or faced a cross-examination in a court. You can be sure the policewomen knew what she was in for in court. If you or anyone else seriously believe women make false claims of rape all the time, go and sit through a rape trial.