Rear-Wheel Drive More Fun Than Front-Wheel Drive?

[pottery beige]

rollback

clutch dump

handbrake

FWD skids are funny

[roKWiz]

I suppose the older FWD technology perched a lot more weight forward of the front axles with heavier cast iron blocks of the time when compared to newer lighter weight transmissions, engine assemblies which produce twice the horsepower.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

rollback

clutch dump

handbrake

FWD skids are funny

There goes the engine mounts lol!

Amended version - saw the rollback up the top PB.

cheers, Maka

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

I love the tail out driving of a RWD and thats how I've learnt to drive however I did have a Charade GTTi for a short time and I've gotta say it was just as much fun squirming up the road with a load of torque steer. Went around corners like it was on rails too. I'd buy one again if I could find one.

In a previous life I used to Rally a Saab 96V4, we found that the rear could be persuaded to move out more if we removed the front anti roll bar

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

rollback

clutch dump

handbrake

FWD skids are funny

Or Maccas tray drifting in a FWD!

Drive the rear tyres on 2 maccas trays, pull up handbrake, then drive around maccas carpark like a drift god

[Maka]

Some fun facts (since this is a kind of Rwd v Fwd thread, ive left out the Awd also mentioned in the link) -

https://www.motorists.org/blog/pros-...l-wheel-drive/

Rear Wheel Drive

There are two main advantages to owning a RWD car. The first is that RWD is both simple and rugged — especially if it’s a solid axle design — and can take a lot of abuse without needing expensive repairs. Accidentally run over a curb in a solid axle RWD car, for instance, and you probably won’t break anything. But hit a curb (or even a deep pothole) in a FWD car and the odds are much higher that something expensive will be damaged. This is why cop cars and other “service” vehicles are overwhelmingly RWD.

The other advantage RWD cars offer is better balance — and because of this, better handling. While a FWD car has most of the weight of the engine and transaxle (the transmission and axle assembly are one unit in a FWD car) over the front wheels, a RWD car spreads the weight of its drivetrain more evenly front-to-rear. This is why most sports cars — and virtually all race cars — are RWD.

And cons? As anyone who has owned one will tell you, RWD cars are at their weakest in poor weather — rain and snow. Even with modern traction control, a RWD car is more prone to loss of traction on slick roads. In snow, RWD cars are best left home.

Front Wheel Drive

As with RWD, FWD offers two main advantages — just very different ones. The first is economy. It is cheaper to design and build a FWD car. There are fewer parts — and the drivetrain is easier and cheaper to install as the car rolls down the assembly line. FWD also helps cut down the car’s weight by eliminating the separate transmission and axle assemblies used in a RWD car. This, in turn helps the car get better gas mileage. This is why FWD is most commonly found in economy-type and lower-cost cars.

The other FDW plus is better traction than a RWD car can deliver — especially in rain and snow. The front wheels pull the car instead of the rear wheels pushing it. And, the weight of the engine/transaxle sits on top of the (front) drive wheels, which further helps the car get a grip. FWD cars are typically very capable in poor weather — even excellent, when fitted with snow tires.

Cons? FWD cars are nose-heavy, which isn’t optimal for handling — especially high-speed, high-load handling. A related problem is that the front wheels have to do two things at once — put the power to the ground and steer the car. This, too, is not optimal for a performance/sporty car. In a high-powered FWD car, it can sometimes be difficult or awkward to keep the car pointed straight ahead as the car accelerates. The front wheels may jerk to the left or right — a problem called “torque steer.” Modern FWD cars are less prone to this thanks to electronic traction control, but it’s still not the hot set-up for performance applications — which is why very few “serious” performance cars are FWD.

The final thing to know about FWD is that it’s relatively fragile. Half-shafts and constant velocity (CV) joints are more susceptible to injury than a rugged lump of cast iron — as in a RWD car’s solid axle. While a RWD car’s axle may outlast the car and never require service beyond the occasional lube change, it is far more likely that a FWD car will need new CV joints/boots or something else as the years roll by.
(With thanks to NMA Blog & Eric Peters)

cheers, Maka

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

rollback

clutch dump

handbrake

FWD skids are funny

Till burning rubber smell is replaced by burning clutch

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by Maka

Well it all depends on the weight balance over the front (to rear) imo Roddy, more weight over the front end will affect turn in & handling neutrality causing plow on understeer where something like a BMW Rwd with 50/50 balance is the perfect balance. Fwd is something like 60/40 afaik.

Excuse my rough explanation Roddy but i think you will get the idea, anyone who can expand on what im saying please chime in lol!

cheers, Maka

This is the crux of it - weight distribution. People tend to focus on which wheels are doing the driving and how the car will behave when traction is lost, but that's only part of it. Weight distribution is a big factor when describing how a car will handle.

Then if you want to add AWD into the mix you have to consider that the majority of AWD cars start as FWD and have the AWD system "added on". But there are also cars, most of which we don't get in Australia, that start as RWD with the AWD system "added on" - Ford Territory was one example.

So forget about RWD v AWD v FWD for a second, and look at the chassis/drive train configuration - longitudinal vs transverse. All FWD and most AWD cars are transverse. Speaking from an enthusiast point of view, it's horrible. The engine and transmission are slung out over the top of the front axle line. Weight distribution is horrendous. That there are some seriously fun cars around like the Focus ST that have this layout is testament to the talented engineers who've refined what is undoubtedly a compromised architecture, from an enthusiast/performance point of view.

If that's not bad enough think about how many people bought diesel hatches. Heavy cast iron engine on top of the front wheels? No thanks.

RWD and longitudinal layouts allow the engine to be placed behind and below the front axle line, resulting in a long bonnet and usually less interior space, but it won't be any where near as prone to understeer. 50/50 weight distribution is far easier to achieve, but not the case in every RWD car.

Another thing complicating the argument is that there are some super-fun FWD cars around and some terrible RWD cars. (though not so many these days) It's pretty much impossible to compare apples with apples. Small hot hatches work well as FWD - adjust your driving style to suit and have a blast. But then again you can still buy a BMW M140i...

And then there's my pet topic - aesthetic proportions. Small cars and supercars aside, the car with a longitudinal chassis will always look better.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

This is the crux of it - weight distribution. People tend to focus on which wheels are doing the driving and how the car will behave when traction is lost, but that's only part of it. Weight distribution is a big factor when describing how a car will handle.

Then if you want to add AWD into the mix you have to consider that the majority of AWD cars start as FWD and have the AWD system "added on". But there are also cars, most of which we don't get in Australia, that start as RWD with the AWD system "added on" - Ford Territory was one example.

So forget about RWD v AWD v FWD for a second, and look at the chassis/drive train configuration - longitudinal vs transverse. All FWD and most AWD cars are transverse. Speaking from an enthusiast point of view, it's horrible. The engine and transmission are slung out over the top of the front axle line. Weight distribution is horrendous. That there are some seriously fun cars around like the Focus ST that have this layout is testament to the talented engineers who've refined what is undoubtedly a compromised architecture, from an enthusiast/performance point of view.

If that's not bad enough think about how many people bought diesel hatches. Heavy cast iron engine on top of the front wheels? No thanks.

RWD and longitudinal layouts allow the engine to be placed behind and below the front axle line, resulting in a long bonnet and usually less interior space, but it won't be any where near as prone to understeer. 50/50 weight distribution is far easier to achieve, but not the case in every RWD car.

Another thing complicating the argument is that there are some super-fun FWD cars around and some terrible RWD cars. (though not so many these days) It's pretty much impossible to compare apples with apples. Small hot hatches work well as FWD - adjust your driving style to suit and have a blast. But then again you can still buy a BMW M140i...

And then there's my pet topic - aesthetic proportions. Small cars and supercars aside, the car with a longitudinal chassis will always look better.

Well there it is guys, why cars handle the way they do expertly defined!

Thanks heaps tranquilized!!

[Maka]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

I remember in the late 70's, early 80's in Sydney we would test all our performance add-ons along (good ol dirt) Halcrows Rd, Glenorie to Cattai.
Many a time was spent sideways in a 308 Premier, couple of GTS's and later in many a Holden panel van I had. It was one of the favourite test roads we had, close to home, no houses, 100km zone, winding dirt, night time practice.
Oversteer was the norm and the best new product of the time was a second hand HZ Kingswood with RTS. wow technology !

Yeah definitely old school RWD fun for me.

Do you know the Prospect hotel on the Great Western Hwy near Blacktown rokWiz? Well theres a off ramp just past the pub that goes to Blacktown & after the uphill leading from the Hwy, there's a brilliant r/h sweeper, ive seen many try hard maniacs go hard there lol...

"Those were the days my friend", a song line ive expertly borrowed from a old Abba song lol!!

cheers, Maka

[arronm]

I drove a FWD car once. 200kw Camry I think. Gassed it and the steering wheel was pulled out of my hands. Piece of crap.

FWD. Best left for grandma.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Maka

Do you know the Prospect hotel on the Great Western Hwy near Blacktown rokWiz? Well theres a off ramp just past the pub that goes to Blacktown & after the uphill leading from the Hwy, there's a brilliant r/h sweeper, ive seen many try hard maniacs go hard there lol...

"Those were the days my friend", a song line ive expertly borrowed from a old Abba song lol!!

cheers, Maka

Maka, yes know it well. That turn used to be a seriously off camber curve which didn't help. Knew Sydney back to front and upside down.
Spent a heap of my leisure time at "Village Grand Prix', Prospect playing on their games machines and go cart track .
After my apprenticeship, I worked 2 years as a courier driver for ASAP running a modded HX Holden PV, Hotwires 9's and 8's G50 Kelly's out back and the obligatory BFG's up front, worked 208, triple 1 3/4 SU.s, balanced steel crank, yellow terra head, Supra 5 speed, beefed up Salisbury.
Would be equal to 10 years high speed driving for ASAP in that time.
Some of the jobs done would wind you up in gaol now for driving offences.

Most fun RWD I reckon I owned... and got paid for it.

[Mercury Bullet]

Nice shorts rokwiz.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Mercury Bullet

Nice shorts rokwiz.

Very 80's Dappa, notice the OHS footwork to.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Maka, yes know it well. That turn used to be a seriously off camber curve which didn't help. Knew Sydney back to front and upside down.
Spent a heap of my leisure time at "Village Grand Prix', Prospect playing on their games machines and go cart track .
After my apprenticeship, I worked 2 years as a courier driver for ASAP running a modded HX Holden PV, Hotwires 9's and 8's G50 Kelly's out back and the obligatory BFG's up front, worked 208, triple 1 3/4 SU.s, balanced steel crank, yellow terra head, Supra 5 speed, beefed up Salisbury.
Would be equal to 10 years high speed driving for ASAP in that time.
Some of the jobs done would wind you up in gaol now for driving offences.

Most fun RWD I reckon I owned... and got paid for it.

image

Nice photo rokWiz, your HX pan'o would've been a ripper work van mate, your photo brings back some great memories of the time for me.

I remember the Village Grand Prix, monumental battles with my mates ensued there i tell ya, lol!! It was a sad day when it shut down, then one day in the future we got Eastern Creek Raceway lol!

Back then i had a mate with a Cooper S Mini & he swore by it while all of us had the usual grunter Falcons, Valiants/ Chargers, Kingswoods/Monaro's & Torana's & basically on the right stretch of road, he'd show a clean pair of heels to everyone.

He mastered liftoff oversteer & the turn in on his Cooper was amazing & it wasn't stock anywhere, it had all the good bits on it & fair dinkum you could see why they won Bathurst back in the mid sixties lol!!

They were a good thing in there day, the old Mini's & Coopers etc dont know about the rice bubble Morris's though lol!!

cheers, Maka

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Very 80's Dappa, notice the OHS footwork to.

Certainly did. Dunlop volleys?

A few years earlier and it would have been a body shirt with white stitching.
Only thing missing is the purple and gold tie.

[Wretched]

hmmm depends on the car and the definition of "fun."
I have had both RWD and FWD "performance" cars and have had equal fun in both.

Having driven a number of different cars the layouts mentioned including AWD i couldn't choose just one. I have enjoyed driving a 600hp s/c 300C Srt, a F6, my XR5, ST and RS just to name a few. All were "fun" in different ways.

[roKWiz]

Maka,
Yes, was sad to see VGP close down, probably the site of the current Rare spares, remember them at Parramatta Rd Hombush, what a shop.
Those little mini's were rockets. Apart from the usual XR XT and Holden's my mates had we had one guy with a Porsche powered beetle, I remember the forged Porsche wheels were the give away (probably very common conversion now)
Another guy had a Mazda Capella which he like the fang around Galston Gorge and Crosslands but he was a total ratbag.

Mercury,
mate, I would have loved a uniform like that, Pee Wee Herman look out but we used to get docked 5% of our pay if we weren't dressed in Green and Gold shirts. I even got docked 5% for a month cause I had magnetic company stickers made which I took off on weekends, it was in the contract no advertising 5% off.
Regular Friday run was the San hospital, Wahroonga to Mascot airport for Ansett. pick 11.00am drop 11.40am. Kidney transplant went to Adelaide.

The plane would wait for you on the tarmac.
I think an ambulance would have a hard time doing it theses days.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by arronm

I drove a FWD car once. 200kw Camry I think. Gassed it and the steering wheel was pulled out of my hands. Piece of crap.

FWD. Best left for grandma.

Originally Posted by Maka

Ok, a controversial one - e10? Thoughts please, octane - pass, mileage - fail lol..

cheers, Maka

So a nanna will handle a 200kw camry better than you. Is that how you meant that.
JP

[jpblue1000]

If your not getting oversteer in your fwd drive your not trying hard enough. No wonder you feel they are slow.
I've raced at many tracks, both fwd and red. And at similar power levels commensurate with the car size, the fwd can be quicker in my experience. And quick lap times are fun for me!

[Maka]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

So a nanna will handle a 200kw camry better than you. Is that how you meant that.
JP

Some word play there quoting me too jp lol, still prefer rwd, plus they are faster around a racetrack imo.

If you are just as fast in a fwd as a rwd on track, you are not trying hard enough in the rwd, now take the cardigan off too its adding unsprung weight (only joking mate!!) lol!!

cheers, Maka

[blueoval]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Maka, yes know it well. That turn used to be a seriously off camber curve which didn't help. Knew Sydney back to front and upside down.
Spent a heap of my leisure time at "Village Grand Prix', Prospect playing on their games machines and go cart track .
After my apprenticeship, I worked 2 years as a courier driver for ASAP running a modded HX Holden PV, Hotwires 9's and 8's G50 Kelly's out back and the obligatory BFG's up front, worked 208, triple 1 3/4 SU.s, balanced steel crank, yellow terra head, Supra 5 speed, beefed up Salisbury.
Would be equal to 10 years high speed driving for ASAP in that time.
Some of the jobs done would wind you up in gaol now for driving offences.

Most fun RWD I reckon I owned... and got paid for it.

image

Nice to see some gender neutral clothing in them days

Those cars are definite beasts. I do miss the feeling of RWD

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Personal opinion and preference which one is more fun, which one is faster around the twists, no question the FWD.

We have 10km of twisty country road to get to the motorway on my drive to work, and I can guarantee that our $900 stock standard Toyota Starlet 1.3 litre manual FWD will pretty much eat any Falcon/Commodore even with modded suspension along that stretch of road.

That particular stretch does not really allow you to take advantage of the power, so 6 or V8 won't matter.

And that's coming from a person that has driver RWD V8's since the 80's, including XR8's and FPV's/GT's.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

In saying the above, I also prefer any of my Falcons to a FWD.

Our Starlet drives like a GoCart, it's insane the speed it can be thrown into corners, and it's stock standard with over 200,000km on the clock, cost us $900, and we use it as a run around for work.

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by arronm

I drove a FWD car once. 200kw Camry I think. Gassed it and the steering wheel was pulled out of my hands. Piece of crap.

FWD. Best left for grandma.

grow some arms??

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by arronm

I drove a FWD car once. 200kw Camry I think. Gassed it and the steering wheel was pulled out of my hands. Piece of crap.

FWD. Best left for grandma.

What are you trying to say?? It reads to me Grandma is stronger than you, so better give the car to her.

[arronm]

I did. Grandma only uses 1/8 throttle. FWD cars are just crap.

They are for grandpop, grandma and Liberace.

[Maka]

See, where's Hulk now, I'm sure he'd have a opinion to contribute in this thread lol!!

cheers, Maka

[mike_nofx]

I’d like some honest opinions on whether FWD is actually a better layout than RWD in the SAME sized and powered car. It seems like comparisons between FWD and RWD are like comparing a Focus to a Falcon. Of course in a tight twisty stretch of road the smaller lighter car will outdo a heavy family barge.

To me, it seems the whole reason the FWD layout come about was as a cost saving measure. Sure, companies have spent a lot of time and money making FWD vehicles handle better, but is that only because they’re working with a compromised layout?

Imagine for example if ford put equal R&D into developing a RWD focus, a small lightweight hatch with great handling suspension and a RWD layout, then would it be better than what it currently is? That way we’re comparing apples with apples, and not small hatches with large sedans.
Or is FWD always going to be better than RWD in a small hatch?
Imagine a FWD FG Falcon, would that possibly have been better than what the RWD we have is?

Another thing to ponder is, if FWD is in any way at all a ‘better’ layout, why in general do the top performance models of FWD based vehicles tend to be AWD?
And why don’t we see the likes of Ferrari or Porsche bringing out FWD performance models?

Basically, I’m claiming that FWD is a compromised cost saving option for manufacturers. I acknowledge that many FWD’s will out corner a RWD, but usually that’s more of a comparison between small and nimble versus big and heavy. Not driveline configuration.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

In saying the above, I also prefer any of my Falcons to a FWD.

Our Starlet drives like a GoCart, it's insane the speed it can be thrown into corners, and it's stock standard with over 200,000km on the clock, cost us $900, and we use it as a run around for work.

Remember XB GS 351 Coupe, those fwd gokarts are real low to the ground & 60km feels like 100km, at least the thrills are safer lol!!

cheers, Maka