Another Holden is gone article

[dead_man00124]

The issue actually lies with both the manufacturer and the government, government more so for not allowing car makers in this country to compete on an even footing.

imo start with the whole FBT stuff only applying to Aus built cars and scrap the FTA with thailand. we got the bad end of the stick with that one

[vanman_75]

We are approaching being the dumbest country in the world ...our financial apocalypse is getting closer with our retarded governments ....not good !

[ivorya]

This is going to sound harsh but.......................... GOOD!!

I'm glad that now, finally, there is crap being written about Holden.

[Struggo]

Originally Posted by ivorya

This is going to sound harsh but.......................... GOOD!!

I'm glad that now, finally, there is crap being written about Holden.

Can't agree about the good comment, the reason being we are in a dire position. Below is a report from today highlighting the potential loses to the TAX purse,

Approximately $21.5 billion would be wiped from the Australian economy if the automotive manufacturing industry collapsed in 2018, according to research commissioned by the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (FCAI).

The report found the economies of Melbourne and Adelaide would be “devastated” if Toyota and Holden were to follow Ford and close before the end of the decade, with 33,000 Victorian job losses and 6600 in South Australia, and gross regional product (GRP) not returning to pre-closure levels until the end of 2031.

Conversely, it found that if barriers to export were removed and the industry could return to 2008 export levels (when 160,000 vehicles were exported), Australia’s consumer welfare would increase by $7.1 billion.

The report, based on economic analysis by Monash University’s Centre of Policy Studies and research by the Allen Consulting Group, revealed that automotive manufacturing in Australia receives only around $500 million in government funding each year yet contributes $21.5 billion to the economy (based on an economic welfare net present value calculation).

That funding translates to government assistance of just $18 per person – a “very low figure by international standards” according to the report – while the economic return equates to $934 per person in benefit.

It suggests Australia’s gross domestic product (GDP) would fall by $7.3 billion (in today’s dollars) by 2018 if local automotive production ceased, with foreign owned parent companies redirecting billions of investment dollars to other countries, rather than other industries within Australia.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/258192/a...economy-21-5b/

Plus

The comparison showed that the German car industry received five times the Australian level of assistance, the French industry more than eight times and the US industry almost 15 times the level of assistance seen in Australia.

“Important, but not readily captured in an economic model, are the severely concentrated negative social impacts in areas of high youth unemployment and high automotive dependency if the automotive industry leaves Australia.”

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257C1900062B46

[Chopped]

To all of those who think this is a good thing, good luck getting cheap large performance sedans in the future.

Funny to see both brands have their short sighted fanboys.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Just shows how stupid the whole thing is. Absolute dipshits whinging over $500 million a year of subsidies when it can bring in over $21 billion in economic benefits over a decade.

Why is it even an issue?

Because the general public just see their $$$ "going to waste"

[RANGEREST]

21.5 Billion is going to hurt us big time, but it doesn't matter, cos Holdens are ****! hey staz and ivorya. Never mind about the jobs or economy, nope Holdens are **** so ef em! Absolute geniuses, come up with a way to create 39900 jobs at ford for em all and that ll fix it. Oh hang on they're closing too, Toyota? nope they'll be next.
Ef them cos they're not my fave car is a moronic attitude.

[fte50]

All the crap being written is by short sighted clowns and their fanboy club supporters whom with all heads combined obviously cant comprehend a news article, let alone make unbiased constructive comment.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by ivorya

This is going to sound harsh but.......................... GOOD!!

I'm glad that now, finally, there is crap being written about Holden.

Its nowhere a good thing, imagine being a worker and seeing constant dribble from the media outlets, an axe hanging above your head...there is some empathy there.


My wife experienced the un-certainty of being job less to a range of cuts and restructuring (ie, sack Aussies, sublet to Indians) at the paper she works for, the pressure of that brought here to tears at some stages.


I cannot fathom how a motoring enthusiast, well, let alone an Australian can find any happiness or gladness in this situation of loosing potentially thousands of jobs and a wealth of history...i'd be inclined to think of them as imbecilic persons...

[BHDOGS]

oh the anger from those who care towards those who don't if only the rest of the country logged onto aff aswell you could really solve the issue but since this minority wont make a difference to the big car buying public id say your **** out of luck of saving holden.

[Maka]

A level playing field finally perhaps? A economic free trade zone is coming (NT?) & fta's being negotiated with China, Japan & South Korea over the next few years (love to know the terms lol!) Looking into my crystal ball, if the dollar dont come down economic migrants may well be the backbone of Oz's first EFTZ.... Imo all the real important stakeholders know its coming, the next two years will reveal THE globalised auto manufacturing plan for Australia - hope we dont get ripped off again. 21.5 billion would be a catastrophic slug to the economy, Canberra has to play with a straight bat & put Australia first this time!

cheers, Maka

[Vormund]

Well this has just been posted. (November 04, 2013 4:47PM)

Holden's Elizabeth factory to get upgrade

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Its nowhere a good thing, imagine being a worker and seeing constant dribble from the media outlets, an axe hanging above your head...there is some empathy there.


My wife experienced the un-certainty of being job less to a range of cuts and restructuring (ie, sack Aussies, sublet to Indians) at the paper she works for, the pressure of that brought here to tears at some stages.


I cannot fathom how a motoring enthusiast, well, let alone an Australian can find any happiness or gladness in this situation of loosing potentially thousands of jobs and a wealth of history...i'd be inclined to think of them as imbecilic persons...

Look, I feel sorry for all aussie workers. Lets face it, it's the consumer wanting to buy cheap that is driving it. And the fact that Governments don't seem to give a rats *** whats happening in front of them.
I've said before in other threads 'Ford Closing etc' it just doesn't seem fair/right what they decision makers are doing. I thought the role of governments was to keep people in work so they collect tax's. All they will be seeing is workers lining up for doll checks.

My comments above weren't having a dig at the workers or brand but mainly the fact that, finally the juorno's have taken away the blind folds and realised that holden does build in the country and that they can write some negative stories about them.
I'm, like the rest of us, were sick of the countless negativity shown towards, 1stly Mitzubishi, then our Favourite 'Ford'.

I'm sorry to offend you mate.

[BroadyFord]

Originally Posted by Vormund

Well this has just been posted. (November 04, 2013 4:47PM)

Holden's Elizabeth factory to get upgrade

Don't want to read into this too much but it appears to be a good sign.

At least shows GM is willing to wait for the Prod Comm report rather than shut the joint down before it's released.

[Syndrome]

Once Ford announced they were closing it was only a matter of time before Holden followed them.

[XR Martin]

Once the media had sunk the final boot into Mitsubishi, they moved onto Ford. Now that Ford has been stomped to death they are moving onto Holden.

[BroadyFord]

Originally Posted by BroadyFord

Don't want to read into this too much but it appears to be a good sign.

At least shows GM is willing to wait for the Prod Comm report rather than shut the joint down before it's released.

The final nail in the coffin...

Pay rises at stressed Holden

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nati...1226753108425#

HOLDEN workers will receive cash bonuses and annual pay rises worth almost $5 million during the next two months as the carmaker seeks extra taxpayer assistance from the federal government to stave off closure.

The struggling car company, which has received $2.7 billion in subsidies over the past 12 years, including a $275m co-investment package from state and federal governments last year, will have to walk away from a wage freeze it had negotiated with unions in August in an attempt to keep down costs.

Holden, which is currently seeking an ongoing annual subsidy beyond 2016, has been attacked for failing to tie pay increases to productivity improvements at the plant, with Coalition MPs questioning the value of taxpayers "handing over large wads of cash" to give generous pay rises to workers.

An expected delay in Holden's investment decision whether to remain in Australia will cause an agreed wage freeze to lapse, meaning workers at the company's South Australian manufacturing plant will receive a 3 per cent pay rise on November 15 ahead of a $1000 cash bonus next month. The 2011 collective agreement, which awarded Holden workers an approximate minimum rise of 18.3 per cent over a three-year period, was hailed by unions at the time as a "spectacular" deal for members, but was criticised by members of the Coalition as being overly generous.

Holden managing director Mike Devereux defended the agreement last year saying it was "intelligently crafted", but this year conceded the company's wage bill was not sustainable.

Mr Devereux has described Australia as being "among the most expensive places to build cars anywhere on the planet", with $2000 of the $3750 additional cost of building a Holden in Australia attributed to labour costs.

General Motors reported a $1.72bn profit in its most recent quarterly results last week, but revealed the profit of its international division, which includes Asia and Australia, dropped about 60 per cent to $299m. Excluding China, the carmaker would have lost about $100m.

At the May release of its 2012 financial report, chief financial officer George Kapitelli said the carmaker's 152m loss for the year was "a direct result of Holden building cars in Australia".

Workers agreed to the pay freeze in August as an amendment to the 2011 enterprise bargaining agreement that the company said was needed to save $50m in operating costs to remain in Australia. None of the revisions comes into effect unless Holden commits by November 15 to building the new Cruze and Commodore vehicles after 2016, meaning Holden will be hit with extra costs as it weighs up whether to keep its Australian carmaking plant open.

The manufacturing union has flagged a stand-off with the company over the pay rise, saying it will not allow Holden to claw back the money if it later makes an investment decision to keep building cars at its northern Adelaide plant beyond 2016.

With an investment decision unlikely until after the Productivity Commission reports to the Coalition next year, Holden will be obliged to follow through on the 3 per cent pay rise outlined in the 2011 collective agreement, despite workers voting in August to forgo the increase. In addition to the wage hike, Holden must give workers a cash payment of $1000 next month as the final instalment of a $3750 hardship bonus agreed to after the global financial crisis and included in the 2011 deal. The combined cost of the payments based on the average salary of $55,000 for the 1750 workers is $4.64m.

When details of the agreement were made public in February last year, then opposition workplace relations spokesman Eric Abetz said wage increases at Holden needed to be moderated, particularly given the level of taxpayer support for the industry.

"When the trade union bosses boast that they've got huge wage rises without a productivity trade-off and they are well above CPI, taxpayers are entitled to ask whether they are getting value for money and whether the company is genuinely engaged in transforming itself to stand alone," Senator Abetz said at the time.

CFMEU South Australian secretary John Camillo said yesterday that once the "legally binding" pay rise was awarded to workers, the union would not agree to it being recovered by Holden.

"If they make the decision in March (on the investment), Holden might argue that workers should pay that money back, but our argument would be that we move on, people would have spent that money . . . and then we have an agreed position as we go forward," Mr Camillo said.

"The most sensible thing would be not to ask for that money back."

Mr Camillo said that if Holden announced a 2016 closure, the union would not allow the cost-saving measures to go ahead, and warned of more hardline negotiations on what would be the company's final EBA lasting from 2014 to 2016. Holden refused to comment on the scheduled pay increase or the union's remarks.

Finance Minister Mathias Cormann said last night the government reserved the right to inject more money into the carmaking industry if such a move were recommended by the Productivity Commission inquiry. "We would like to see a strong and sustainable car industry for the very long term," he said.

[P6LTD351]

LOL LOL LOL LOL

Does anyone think that a $250 000 upgrade is a good sign? That is peanuts!

Yeah I can see Detroit going "Hey, we just spent $250 000 - keep them open for another 10 years!"

Silly article.

[Maka]

A very complicated situation, i hope for the workers sake, Holden & the consumer that these issues are resolved in a win win situation for all. Imo any struggling carmaker needs to look at the ethos behind ToyoSube's 86 & their future 4 door 86 - cheap to build, old tech & a winner to the extent that it has allowed Toyota to keep their heads above water, they've got that market all to themselves it seems - for now

cheers, Maka

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Maka

A very complicated situation, i hope for the workers sake, Holden & the consumer that these issues are resolved in a win win situation for all. Imo any struggling carmaker needs to look at the ethos behind ToyoSube's 86 & their future 4 door 86 - cheap to build, old tech & a winner to the extent that it has allowed Toyota to keep their heads above water, they've got that market all to themselves it seems - for now

cheers, Maka

It's a lose loose situation for the taxpayer who have to keep forking out to save an unsustainable manufacturing business . if they were to say give as X $ and that will bail us out in the long term and make us a viable business I would say great go for it. but GM jus keep holding a gun at our heads sticking their hand out for more cash in a never ending saga.
Australia is not in a position to compete in this market it's as simple as that and I object to spending taxpayers money to prop up a terminally ill manufacturing facility. we need to look at spending this money where it will do some good in the long term , developing an area that Australia has a proven track record in.
Niche design and manufacturing, developing and manufacturing low volume specialised equipment. this is an area that our Asian competitors are not particularly interested in as they can't churn out 100, 000,000 products like sausages at low cost. this area requires skilled workers and engineers that could easily be sourced from closed automotive production facilities.
the investment to increase out presence in this market would be a one off investment creating companies who can stand on their own 2 feet instead of one that's always after handouts. sounds like an economically responsible path to me

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Once the media had sunk the final boot into Mitsubishi, they moved onto Ford. Now that Ford has been stomped to death they are moving onto Holden.

This.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Just shows how stupid the whole thing is. Absolute dipshits whinging over $500 million a year of subsidies when it can bring in over $21 billion in economic benefits over a decade.

Why is it even an issue?

I cant find the original article, but I thought it stated $21 billion per year. But on your assumption, its $5 billion per decade (10 years), for $21 billion of economic activity ( and economic activity in itself means nothing unless its wealth creative).

If going the other way (like I said, I thought the original article said $21 billion per year), then that is a complete lie. Australia only produces circa 200,000 cars a year. A large percentage of those cars are cheap camry exports and cheap cruzes. Australian cars would be lucky to average out at $25,000 per car, given car production in australia a economic value of 200,000 x $25,000 = $5 billion. Now there will alot of responses saying but what about all the industries it supports etc etc, but they are all fed into the price of the final car (ie it would be double counting). And no doubt, suppliers that make parts for the car manufacturers, also make other parts (and a stop in orders from the car makers, may make other activities to stop), but it is ridiculous to say it all amounts to 4 times the activity.

And not forgetting that it is generally accepted that 30% of the car parts are made overseas ( ie the economic activity has happened overseas). So lets do $5 billion - 30% = $3.5 billion. But I think the main point that needs to be remembered, when some of the news companies quoted this report, they did say that it was a "paid for" report (by the auto industry). And this same company did also earlier this year, release two reports at the same time, with one saying the subsidies are a waste of money and the otger saying they were good value for money.

[Bill M]

bob,

it is not an assumption by Bossxr8 as you state, the references are easy to find if you really want to,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-0...cludes/5066938

Your standard lines of "I can't find the article" or "they are liars" don't count for much when you don't produce sources to back up your opinions.

Basic secondary school debating standards should be a minimum.

Bill.

[Maka]

"It's a lose loose situation for the taxpayer who have to keep forking out to save an unsustainable manufacturing business . if they were to say give as X $ and that will bail us out in the long term and make us a viable business I would say great go for it. but GM jus keep holding a gun at our heads sticking their hand out for more cash in a never ending saga.

I agree, the current situation is deplorable, but things can be different if the productivity commissions findings are creditable & implemented asap.


"Australia is not in a position to compete in this market it's as simple as that and I object to spending taxpayers money to prop up a terminally ill manufacturing facility. we need to look at spending this money where it will do some good in the long term , developing an area that Australia has a proven track record in."


The current manufacturing climate is toxic & loaded against us, in the future it may well be the other way around lets see what the commission finds before we say goodbye to auto manufacturing in Oz for ever.


"Niche design and manufacturing, developing and manufacturing low volume specialised equipment. this is an area that our Asian competitors are not particularly interested in as they can't churn out 100, 000,000 products like sausages at low cost. this area requires skilled workers and engineers that could easily be sourced from closed automotive production facilities."


Over the next couple of years fta's will be signed with Asia's big three, 457 visa auto workers would love to work here in NT's looming economic free trade zone if they got a bit more money in their pockets than what they're getting now. Aussie workers will / should look after the niche design, r&d and hi precision manufacturing. Globalisation is a fact of life now, we must make the rules suit us not the other way around ie Thailand.


"the investment to increase out presence in this market would be a one off investment creating companies who can stand on their own 2 feet instead of one that's always after handouts. sounds like an economically responsible path to me"

In a perfect world yes i agree but in todays economic climate im not so sure. A three to one return on investment is pretty good in any book, but when the playing field is level then no handouts aye


cheers Maka

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Its nowhere a good thing, imagine being a worker and seeing constant dribble from the media outlets, an axe hanging above your head...there is some empathy there.


My wife experienced the un-certainty of being job less to a range of cuts and restructuring (ie, sack Aussies, sublet to Indians) at the paper she works for, the pressure of that brought here to tears at some stages.


I cannot fathom how a motoring enthusiast, well, let alone an Australian can find any happiness or gladness in this situation of loosing potentially thousands of jobs and a wealth of history...i'd be inclined to think of them as imbecilic persons...

By the ABC's polling before the last election only 20% of the population thinks it is an issue worth voting for.

I recall an article on a cat stepping on a keyboard and winning an ebay auction so possibly some of the online opinions are from our furry friends?

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by CarAdvice

"Factory workers also revealed the next-generation Commodore, which for the first time will be a global model rather than one engineered and developed predominantly for Australia – would be front-wheel drive, with the factory changes to reflect that."

Did nobody notice this? Those complaining about cheap performance sedans not being available if Holden closes needn't have bothered it seems- same outcome either way!

(woo, 1000th post!)

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by bobthebilda

I cant find the original article, but I thought it stated $21 billion per year. But on your assumption, its $5 billion per decade (10 years), for $21 billion of economic activity ( and economic activity in itself means nothing unless its wealth creative).

I Now there will alot of responses saying but what about all the industries it supports etc etc, but they are all fed into the price of the final car (ie it would be double counting). And no doubt, suppliers that make parts for the car manufacturers, also make other parts (and a stop in orders from the car makers, may make other activities to stop), but it is ridiculous to say it all amounts to 4 times the activity

Ah ha! so what some of us have been saying from actually being involved in manufacturing and NOT receiving Govt auto industry assistance has gotten through!
Aerospace, Mining to mention a few.
Google CNC machining Melbourne Victoria if you don't work in the industry and you will see what I mean.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by P6LTD351

LOL LOL LOL LOL

Does anyone think that a $250 000 upgrade is a good sign? That is peanuts!

Yeah I can see Detroit going "Hey, we just spent $250 000 - keep them open for another 10 years!"

Silly article.

Broady did an upgrade of the plant before they announced they were closing. So it doesn't mean anything and it would be planned upgrade were the money would be approved by Detroit.

[bobthebilda]

Originally Posted by Bill M

bob,

it is not an assumption by Bossxr8 as you state, the references are easy to find if you really want to,
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-0...cludes/5066938

Your standard lines of "I can't find the article" or "they are liars" don't count for much when you don't produce sources to back up your opinions.

Basic secondary school debating standards should be a minimum.

Bill.

Well it was an assumption. Boss said $21 billion in a decade, the article, you quote, says $21 billion (does not give a time frame). Its the same when people say australians only spend $18 per year to support local car industry, then compare the figures from overseas but use decade (plus) expenditures.

[BroadyFord]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Broady did an upgrade of the plant before they announced they were closing. So it doesn't mean anything and it would be planned upgrade were the money would be approved by Detroit.

But Broady never got as far as having a new model to replace Falcon in place.

The upgrade could have been something routine.