The Unions make me so mad...!

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

I reckon they probably earn more then $18.08 an hour working it out too!

Chances are to do that job, they had to do more than a few days at TAFE.

[XR6TCraig]

LOL.
Possibly!

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I was just listening to the hourly news and heard the storey of Qantas cutting 500 jobs.

Then some Union spokesperson came on and said he was unhappy that Qantas hadn't consulted with them... WTF!

Wasn't it the Union that held Qantas over the barrel only recently, causing them to cancel flights and bringing them to their knees? The Qantas name (and share price) has been severly damaged since.

Do the unions even realise that their actions are effectively forcing Companies to take these kind of actions and move operations offshore??

Maybe if you bothered to know the truth about what happened with the Qantas shut down YOU WOULD KNOW it wasnt the union that caused it....
Find out the FACTS before you go and whinge about how "disgusted" you are.

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by opto

Ahh Unions, the necessary evil, if you didn't have them you would have no bargaining power. You, solo versus a large organisation doesn't have a chance. Maybe, those of you who complain about the Unions should try and work for $2.00 per hour and have to do 70 hours a week, no holidays, if you don't show, you lose your job, no sick leave. No safety requirements.
The Unions are fighting to keep your entitlements at a level current with the cost of living. Personally, I get ****ed off when I spent 4 years, and a fair bit more to obtain 3 trades, when you get paid the same as a standard tradie its not fair, not only that, but you have the cost of multiple licenses to carry. When you hear of an unskilled labourer on the same payrate as yourself, you wonder why did I do all the training, the skill level aquired, is it worth it ? Think about it !

I don't get it... I'm not in the union, never have been, but I'm doing ok for myself. I work hard, save hard and live within my means. And I'm not even that smart, so why is it difficult for everyone else to do without being in a union (or should I say mob)?

I work for an Australian consultancy company that is expanding internationally. I spend alot (and I mean alot) of time at airports and travelling, all hours of the day and night. Not ideal conditions, but no-one is holding a gun to my head. I do it because I love it and the Company has a bright future that I want to be part of.

Sounds to me that the average person has an unrealistic sense of entitlement. I know far too many people who complain about what they dont have, but are the first ones out the office door at 5 o'clock and down to the pub.

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Maybe if you bothered to know the truth about what happened with the Qantas shut down YOU WOULD KNOW it wasnt the union that caused it....
Find out the FACTS before you go and whinge about how "disgusted" you are.

Oh, so your union had nothing to do with it hey? I'm 'disgusted' with you for suggesting that.

[Franco Cozzo]

We were in the early stages of getting in EBA happening at work, but the shop steward ended up being promoted to management, no one else wanted to step up to do the job, everyone wanted change no one wanted to be on the visible end of it, then his tune changed, and our union organiser played the wrong cards to the guys and lost the majority support, our HR manager came down from Sydney and he didn't turn up, then he comes in late with no EBA papers.

That put the nail in the union coffin in our workplace.

Plus we were struggling with just over 50% +1 to get the EBA happening. You really need all in for these things to work properly.

But it did one thing, it scared the crap out of management, we found out we had a HR person all of a sudden, and people got payrises in letters sent out to them, and management started talking to us.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

I don't get it... I'm not in the union, never have been, but I'm doing ok for myself. I work hard, save hard and live within my means. And I'm not even that smart, so why is it difficult for everyone else to do without being in a union (or should I say mob)?

Good for you and while I believe that this is all what its about, there is a bit more too the reason you are paid what you are.

Put it this way. Surely you can appreciate that despite the fact that you have never been a union member, many of the conditions that you enjoy are in place because they exist. Things like holiday pay, long service leave, sick leave, the 8 hour day, overtime, time in lieu, RDOs, flexitime, etc, etc, are only in place because of unions.

Even your level of pay, because people under you are paid what they are because of an award wage or an EBA, and the boss realises he has to pay you a little more than that.

Ask yourself this. Would you personally be getting the same pay and conditions if unions never existed? Before you answer, think about the pay and conditions in India parts of Asia.

I am not a staunch unionist, but I know I would be working a lot more hours a day for a lot less money if unions hadn't fought for these kinds of conditions.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by opto

Personally, I get ****ed off when I spent 4 years, and a fair bit more to obtain 3 trades, when you get paid the same as a standard tradie its not fair, not only that, but you have the cost of multiple licenses to carry. When you hear of an unskilled labourer on the same payrate as yourself, you wonder why did I do all the training, the skill level aquired, is it worth it ? Think about it !

But that's just supply and demand. I spent 8 years at uni (1 of only 20-30 people in the country who could do what I do), and at the end, I only got paid the average salary, worked 60hr weeks with no OT, short term contracts and had to compete against overseas workers for positions. I left that industry after a few years.

There's no one to blame but myself. I should have researched much more before going down that road.

[neptune blue]

there is no doubt without unions blue collar workers would have continued to be exploited
the problem is that is gone too far the other way with the unions dictating to employers.

i spent a number of years managing a contract that required my guys to be under an AMUW metals award and they would not bat an eyelid at sending a company broke or making threats of violence even againt their own members

just look at the desal plant, my undersanding is that for the vast majority of the project there was hardly a week go by without some sort of dispute

not only that but if you rocked up to work drunk you would be sent home .... with full pay!

balance needs to be restored and productivity gains must be traded for wage increases in both construction and manufacturing

like it or not we are a global economy. puting your hand out for more money cannot be sustained if you dont give something back

as was already posted when your employer goes broke cos he cant afford to pay you, the union aint going to pay your bills

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

there is no doubt without unions blue collar workers would have continued to be exploited
the problem is that is gone too far the other way with the unions dictating to employers.

i spent a number of years managing a contract that required my guys to be under an AMUW metals award and they would not bat an eyelid at sending a company broke or making threats of violence even againt their own members

just look at the desal plant, my undersanding is that for the vast majority of the project there was hardly a week go by without some sort of dispute

not only that but if you rocked up to work drunk you would be sent home .... with full pay!

balance needs to be restored and productivity gains must be traded for wage increases in both construction and manufacturing

like it or not we are a global economy. puting your hand out for more money cannot be sustained if you dont give something back

as was already posted when your employer goes broke cos he cant afford to pay you, the union aint going to pay your bills

AMWU was the union we had involved to set up our EBA.

[XR6TCraig]

AMWU= Australias Most Weekest Union?
LOL

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Ask yourself this. Would you personally be getting the same pay and conditions if unions never existed? Before you answer, think about the pay and conditions in India parts of Asia.

They used to use leeches in medicine... times change. Workplaces are safe, workers arent exploited en masse. Its hard to see why a union is so crucial nowadays.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by neptune blue

there is no doubt without unions blue collar workers would have continued to be exploited
the problem is that is gone too far the other way with the unions dictating to employers.

Only blue collared workers?

Thats almost insulting!

I believe the term you were looking for was non skilled, or low skilled worker. Plenty of clarks, desk jockeys, call centre operators and pen pushers with very little training could be opened to exploitation too.

FWIW I am a blue collar worker with a trade behind me as well as a degree. I dont do this type of work because I have a strong back and a feeble brain not suited to office work. I just prefer working with my hands. Cant stand being in an office. The skill set I have ensures that I am less likely to be exploited, not the colour of my collar.

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by b0son

They used to use leeches in medicine... times change. Workplaces are safe, workers arent exploited en masse. Its hard to see why a union is so crucial nowadays.

To maintain the staus quo.

Lets not forget that it is primarily because of the union movement that workplaces are now safer and workers aren't exploited en masse.
Its not becasue the owners of these workplaces just decided one day to put these measures in place.

Do you really think a board of directors would put these conditions in place because it is somehow profitable to do so, or to appease the shareholders?

Do you think that if unions were to dissapear, that these conditions would not be erroded bit by bit? The union still has a role to play. Its just a bit concering when they over step the mark and throw common sense out the window, which is when people get a negative opinion of them.

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Do you really think a board of directors would put these conditions in place because it is somehow profitable to do so, or to appease the shareholders?

Do you think that if unions were to dissapear, that these conditions would not be erroded bit by bit? The union still has a role to play.

A smart employer knows that a content worker is a productive worker, so yes, many workplaces have good conditions to entice and keep good staff. Not because any unions have forced this.

[XR6TCraig]

That holds true when unemployment levels are low or you are talking about employees who are highly trained and less disposable. For this reason we never saw the downside the last governments workchoices package. We may have if the Howard/Costello show was around when the GFC hit. Thats for another thread though.

During a big down turn, errosion of conditions is a real concern, especially for low income earners in non skilled roles.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

During a big down turn, errosion of conditions is a real concern, especially for low income earners in non skilled roles.

Whether that is good or bad depends on your POV. I know I'd rather have my conditions eroded than to lose my job.

There seems to be this expectation that when times are good, employers return as much profit to their employees as they can. Then when times are bad, employers are expected to have put money aside to carry their workforce through on the same pay/conditions until times improve again. Then when they do, guess who's got their hands out once more...

[XR6TCraig]

Originally Posted by b0son

Whether that is good or bad depends on your POV. I know I'd rather have my conditions eroded than to lose my job.

.

For sure to a degree. As already mentioned by someone else here, a good union will work with an employer to do just that.

As long as I dont have to train my replacement or sell my house which I can no longer afford to pay for so that the business can return a record profit during the downturn or pay the CEO a record bonus. The pain needs to be shared!

[cheap]

As an employer, the last thing I need is someone who would experience no risk telling me how I should be running my company, who I should and shouldn't hire and how much they should be paid!

The unions are self serving, they manipulate situations and work hand in glove with the Labor party in running business to the wall. It is their way or the highway. Coruption rules within the unions. You just have to look at the HSU, AWU, Painter & Dockers and and and and (the list is very long very long).

If unions were so good, then why do they resist voluntary union membership and secret ballots?

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by b0son

They used to use leeches in medicine... times change. Workplaces are safe, workers arent exploited en masse. Its hard to see why a union is so crucial nowadays.

Take unions out of the industrial relations equation and you would very quickly see why unions are still an important part of todays life.

[neptune blue]

Originally Posted by Craiginmackay

Only blue collared workers?

Thats almost insulting!

I believe the term you were looking for was non skilled, or low skilled worker. Plenty of clarks, desk jockeys, call centre operators and pen pushers with very little training could be opened to exploitation too.

FWIW I am a blue collar worker with a trade behind me as well as a degree. I dont do this type of work because I have a strong back and a feeble brain not suited to office work. I just prefer working with my hands. Cant stand being in an office. The skill set I have ensures that I am less likely to be exploited, not the colour of my collar.

My comment was not ment to insult, it was more of a generalisation
I know that there are clerical, call centre operators that also need representation

I am not a union basher as I stated my working life at 17 stoking a furnace in a foundry. so Ive done the hard yards and did so for many years

through my own hard work and initative as well as going back to night school I am now in a senior management position

so I have seen and worked on both sides of the fence

We need the unions as without them wages , conditions and safety would be eroded, there is no doubting that

however what you dont seem to realise is that our manufacturing is shutting down. if we want to earn more we need to produce more. you want a 36 hour week and get paid for 40 then you have to squeeze 40 hours of productivity in 36 hours

no we want to get paid for 40 and only work 36

I may be a manger but I have budgets and held acountable if i dont meet targets. I need to produce or its bye bye

you may have heard that petrolium refineries in australia want to go off shore because the cost of upgrading their plants is too expensive
what they fail to mention is that it would be an industrial relations mine field and how much of that cost is directly linked to frivolous stopages and unrealistic site alowances and conditions

I know guys that operated vacumm loading equipment at the desal plant
that were making nearly 4K per week each!
the site alowances were just ridiculous

also too bad if you hire a dud because you cant get rid of him
how much are poor performimg individuals costing. Im talking about blatantly lazy trouble makers

the unfortunate part about all this is that real people and real families are going to suffer when dad/ mum or both are out of a job and make no mistake job losses and closures will continue happen if here isnt balance

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Take unions out of the industrial relations equation and you would very quickly see why unions are still an important part of todays life.

You conclude this on what basis? In the last few years, union membership has steadily plummeted, yet wages have continued to increase. There are plenty of non-union industries that have wages well above the minimum. They get their rises through productivity, not extortion.

[FGII-XR6]

although there is a place for unions there are still some cowboys in the unions. early this week there was a notice on our board monday morning advising there was a stop work meeting that morning at 10 AM. when the delegate was asked what it was about he said you'll find out at the meeting.
there was no consultation with members or the employer just a wildcat stopage like in the 70s . the stoppage was unlawful as there had been no consultation and the legal proicess had not been followed. the issues turned out to be minor and non urgent just the delegate due to retire wanted a bit of glory. we were all advised by the depot manager that the stopage was unlawful and fairwork austarlia were prepared to prosecute if it went ahead .
we are a workplace with pay good conditions and I had already intended to continue work as I had already worked out the stoppage was illegal. I am planning a vote of no confidence in the delegate involved as we don't need cowboys like this we need level headed negotiators

[brydie76]

Main exposure I've had to unions is through the constant barrage of union newsletters my dad gets from the various factions of his union that keep fighting against each other (which would be costing them a lot of money and just looks petty) and the lady outside my office who harassed me to join her union (government workers union or something?) and then abused me when I mentioned I worked in the private firm that occupied the majority of said building. So I don't exactly have a positive view of them, but I know my dad is on good conditions and pay thanks to their work in the past.

The problem with them now seems to be a combination of people's expectations (i.e. they got them such a good conditions increase in the past, so they should be able to in the future) and a desperate struggle to remain relevant. I know in my firm, and pretty much so my industry, you don't have a union. Never did. What you get are firm set pay brackets within your position- you do better than your peers, you go to the top of that bracket. You have to prove how good you are through your actions and productivity, and also making sure you let your superiors know how well you have done- it is very competitive, and it gets the best of the best to stay pretty well IMO.

Whilst yes, I am in a professional industry where this has been the norm for years, I do wonder if it is time for other industries to move to a similar model- yes, some sort of watchdog in place to ensure that the established minimums are not cut would be good, but taking the good base that has been set up and basically then making people basically have to compete against one another on performance for not only promotions, but the pay they get. From what I hear at my dad's work (typical "blue collar" manufacturing company), there are plenty of people on the same pay as him purely due to union based increases, despite the fact that they do nothing and he does their work for him (and I don't doubt my dad on that one- he is an insanely hard worker!).

Oh, and just an idea of what those "people who figure out the 4% increase" have to do to get to that job- at least 3 years full time uni (with a $30k plus HECS debt to look forward to after), and often compulsory post graduate qualifications- be it MBA, CPA, CA, Masters Tax, etc etc etc. Many will have to get multiple of those to just survive in the industry and distinguish themselves. All up, including the fact that you will not even be considered off "trainee" position for at least 12 months in this industry due to the sheer amount of stuff you need to learn, it's normally at least 5 years equivalent of full time study/training. Will be closer to 7 for me when I'm done. And this doesn't include the 2 hours per week on average I spend training just to keep my skills and knowledge current. Yes, I know there are people out there who train more than I do, but I do hold a bit of a grudge over how a lot of people tend to generalise and say figuring out the pay increase/budget/etc is easy and shouldn't take as much time or cost as much money as it does.

[ianxy351]

I have spent 15 or more years dealing with unions, negotiating enterprise agreements, resolving disputes, etc. Whilst I spend most of my time representing employers, my position is that unions are necessary to maintain fairness in our workplaces and to give some workers a voice. Having said that, I have met plenty of useless union reps and some of the tactics used are appalling. I am yet to see an enterprise agreement where an employer gets a measurable increase in productivity for the extra pay or entitlements they agree to. It is true (in my view) that many employees view the enterprise bargaining process with a sense of right rather than balance - a bargain is meant to benefit both sides. It is not good enough that the only benefit an employer gets is some industrial piece for a few years.

My view on the Qantas stoppage is that it was probably the last option available to the company. If you recall comments by union organisers that they were going to 'bleed them slowly' (or words to that effect) then the action Qantas took was a last resort circuit breaker - "we have a big stick too" in other words. Its a shame it got to that stage.

I have seen union organisers tell outright lies in negotiations and whilst representing employees. In one case I had to stop a disciplinary meeting because teh arguments from the union organiser were implicating the employer in much more serious issues that I was sure he wasnt a party to. The smart organisers are those who come to people like me and share information and try to reach agreement to move forward; rather than grandstanding in front of members. I have seen unions loose 20 - 50% of their members when grandstanding goes wrong; or when they make promises they cant keep.

All this is not to say that there arent bad employers out there. Most certainly there are. But the average union and employer can work together if people play properly.

As a final comment on poor unions, the recent Grollo matter is a great example of poor union tactics. The unions involved, principally the CFMEU, want employers to pay for 'site safety reps'. Union appointed reps paid for by the employer. In other words, making employers pay for union organisers on site. Poor form in my view. Obviously membership on site is not high so now the tactic is to get the employer to pay. Another reason for cost of living increases, lost work and much angst! I just cant see how a union can convince members to protest about something like that. Its outright bullying in my view.

[tweeked]

The unions don't bat an eyelid shutting a business down to strengthen their position and get what they want, but when a business (Qantas) shuts itself down for the same reason, some people scream unfair? I dont get that bit.

[Ben73]

Since when were all unions terrible?

My workplace was offering below average pay when the company first started in NSW. All rival companies were on much more money and all the employees of my workplace knew this. They were happy to help out as the company started out. The perks were much shorter working hours then all rival companies. All original employees were told that once the company was fully up and running and the EBA was due, they would be receiving parity pay of rival companies.
Before the EBA expired a larger company bought our company. They decided that in the new EBA we would get a payrise, but still be on $10,000 less a year then rival companies.
Some experienced employees did not like this and left the company imediatly to work for rival companies or companies on other states offer much bigger money.
The union helped 'fight' for parity pay. Eventually we got a pretty good pay rise. No one had to strike, no one lost their jobs, the union simply figured out what employees wanted, what the company could afford to pay, and we came to angreemenat which was signed off.
We are still a few grand PA behind rival companies, but in other ways we are ahead. Main point is most employees are happy and the company is happy.

I believe if a union was not involved, we would of got a much smaller pay rise, most experience workers would of left the company to work for rivals(who were all hiring at the time) and then my company would be pushing through inexperienced people who were not ready which would of hurt the company much more in the long run.
Now my company retains a better image with customers, we have scored a number of good contracts with some still in negotiation right now and the company is making more money then it ever has.
Partly thanks to the union help keep employees happy and willing to keep up the good work.

[Pepscobra]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I believe if a union was not involved, we would of got a much smaller pay rise, most experience workers would of left the company to work for rivals(who were all hiring at the time) and then my company would be pushing through inexperienced people who were not ready which would of hurt the company much more in the long run.

Whats this got to do with the unions?
This is just market forces at play. If the company wasnt paying, then as you say people would have left to go work for the competitor. Sooner or later, the company would realise it's losing its good workers and would need to adjust its salaries. Don't see why a union is needed for this??
If I feel I am underpaid for what I am doing, I'll simply look for another job. People do it every day.

Everyone is claiming the Union is there to protect peoples working conditions and to stop exploitation and 13 yr old girls working in factories peeling potatoes and in coal mines and blah blah blah... but all i've heard really is that the union is basically a stand-over guy that comes in and helps 'negotiate' wages for those unwilling to do it themselves. There are plenty of self-help books out there on how to negotiate with your employer.

[faircoupe]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Whats this got to do with the unions?
This is just market forces at play. If the company wasnt paying, then as you say people would have left to go work for the competitor. Sooner or later, the company would realise it's losing its good workers and would need to adjust its salaries. Don't see why a union is needed for this??
If I feel I am underpaid for what I am doing, I'll simply look for another job. People do it every day.

Everyone is claiming the Union is there to protect peoples working conditions and to stop exploitation and 13 yr old girls working in factories peeling potatoes and in coal mines and blah blah blah... but all i've heard really is that the union is basically a stand-over guy that comes in and helps 'negotiate' wages for those unwilling to do it themselves. There are plenty of self-help books out there on how to negotiate with your employer.

Its easy to sit up on your high horse and spout how easy it is for others to obtain a fair workplace and conditions without taking into account that not everyone may be as skilled,lucky,white,male,smart or anything else as you.I think you should take a step back pull your head in and mods should close this thread as it is most certainly political and provoking arguments between members.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by Pepscobra

Whats this got to do with the unions?
This is just market forces at play. If the company wasnt paying, then as you say people would have left to go work for the competitor. Sooner or later, the company would realise it's losing its good workers and would need to adjust its salaries. Don't see why a union is needed for this??
If I feel I am underpaid for what I am doing, I'll simply look for another job. People do it every day.

Everyone is claiming the Union is there to protect peoples working conditions and to stop exploitation and 13 yr old girls working in factories peeling potatoes and in coal mines and blah blah blah... but all i've heard really is that the union is basically a stand-over guy that comes in and helps 'negotiate' wages for those unwilling to do it themselves. There are plenty of self-help books out there on how to negotiate with your employer.

Hmmm, clearly someone is not old enough to have been working when the economy is in recession lucky you.
Never been; dismissed after training your replacement, felt up by the boss, asked to do anything you felt was unsafe or illegal, paid under the award rate etc etc.

I thought you started this thread because of a problem with a Qantas union rep, now you’re just off on some right wing ideological rant.