![]() |
|
|
The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
![]() |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
![]() |
#31 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange, NSW
Posts: 164
|
When they're cheap enough I would not hesitate for a moment to buy one as a commuter car/grocery getter. Nothing like sitting in traffic or at the lights in total silence using only a watt or two of power (to run the brake lights and stereo, etc), plus they should to a billion km without any servicing beyond replacing the batteries and the tyres. The motor in your hard drive can spin at 7200rpm for years and years non stop. No internal combustion engine will do that. Add up how much it costs to service and fuel a car, air filters, oil, belts, etc and the cost of swapping out batteries will be chicken feed - and they'll only get cheaper as they're mass produced, probably in China. Electric motors and circuitry simply do not break down over a realistic time frame.
And I don't buy into the idea that the batteries are not sustainable, as long as all of the relevant EPA measures are put in place. Battery technology is advancing continuously, and they are all fully recyclable. The lithium/calcium/lead/whatever doesn't go anywhere, it's just converted to another compound over time, and can be reprocessed. And fuel cells? I'll wait and see. Hydrogen is a really difficult thing to store. I don't see Hydrogen fuel cells being a reality for another 20 years, and even then, who says batteries or some other storage medium won't be better anyway? And what's with the requirement for doing 100s of km? 95% of people drive 20km or less a day. Nothing says you can't have an internal combustion engine for long distance AND an electric car for the daily commute. We'll see. My prediction is most of you will be driving electric cars by 2030. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#32 | ||||||||
Get EcoBoosted
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW: Newcastle, Sydney & Wollongong
Posts: 1,876
|
I think it's important to define what kind of electric car we are talking about here, because as we know, different cars are designed to do different things.
As we know, hybrids were the first step to cleaner motoring (whilst turning out to being even dirtier in the long run). Plug-in hybrids (PHEV) are the next big thing and ultimately refine the basic hybrid principle - cleaner to produce, further pure electric range and only need small engines to charge them. Full battery electric vehicles (BEV) are not that far off from becoming mainstream (Ford Focus Electric) what we should be focusing on when discussing electric vehicles - these are the cars that will be replacing the fleet of ICE vehicles in the not too distant future. For this thread, I think pure BEVs, designed from the ground up to be BEVs are the best example to use - and Tesla is the most promising / biggest electric only car company out there. Quote:
2., 3., 4. & 5. - http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/models/specs 6. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/models/faq - "Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km)." Will only get better... 7. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_AU/models/faq - "Accessory use does not have a dramatic impact on driving range. Exact range fluctuates based on vehicle speed, driving style, road conditions, and weather. Holding these factors constant, using higher consumption accessories like climate control will reduce range approximately five to ten percent." Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#33 | ||
3..2..1..
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Bellbird park
Posts: 7,218
|
all the ones saying its just shifting emissions from the car to the coal powered stations are ignoring one thing, the coal powered stations are already running, theres no need to build new ones just because a few ev's are getting plugged into the grid...
in somewhere like nz, where a lot of the power is produced by hydro dams they would be ideal. win win. or as someone earlier said, if you already have existing solar power, win win again. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#34 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Jindera, near Albury/Wodonga
Posts: 133
|
Quote:
I live in the country, I know where your coming from, these cars won't work for us.
__________________
Regards Joe. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#35 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange, NSW
Posts: 164
|
^^Also regarding transferring emissions to the Power plants... This is a good thing in a City. Smog and Haze cause asthma and problems for people. It's just plain unhealthy.
Another thing for those claiming that coal fired electricity is less efficient to power a vehicle than fuel, here's some simple Maths to clear that issue up. Coal Power plants are roughly around 40-45% efficient. Electric motors are typically between 80-90% efficient, so assuming those figures and multiplying both extremes by the other corresponding extreme we get 80%x40% = 32% and 90%x45% = 40.5%, the efficiency of an electric car based on the thermal energy output of the burning coal should be roughly between 30-40%. Now lets assume the circuitry to drive the motors in the car is around 80% efficient (it will probably be higher than 80%, probably more than 95% efficient), we get an efficiency somewhere in the region of 24-32%. The most efficient internal combustion engines are diesels, due to the very high compression ratio and the lack of a throttle which may get efficiency as high as 30%. Maybe. That's a stretch. That doesn't count energy use to pump crude oil, to transport it across the ocean, to refine it and transport it to the bowser and to your car. Petrol engines will be possibly as much as 20% efficient, but that would only be at full throttle situations, and would be substantially lower at cruise due to pumping losses from the closed throttle plate. Consider that per Joule electricity is substantially cheaper than fuel to purchase, I think you'll find that electric cars will be both cheaper to run and cleaner, and that doesn't even count the vastly increased running costs of an internal combustion engine. Also consider that my calculations are based on energy derived from coal power. As we move away from fossil fuels (and we will) those efficiency numbers can only increase. Keep in mind that those calculations are very simplistic, I hope it can give those doubters a better understanding of where we're headed. I love my V8s, turbos and grunt as much as anyone on here, but I don't need that on my daily commute, nor do I need the expense. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/el...ncy-d_655.html http://courses.washington.edu/me341/oct22v2.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal...ion#Efficiency Last edited by kircher; 11-02-2012 at 07:17 PM. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#36 | ||
I ♥ EDM
![]() Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 5,141
|
To answer the question, no. And never will.
Ill die hard with ICE. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#37 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Like others have said; for me, the range needs to be increased a lot. I drive 220kms round trip to work every day, so it'd need sort of 250km range at least to be a viable work vehicle for me. Also, I've mentioned the whole coal burning for electricity thing on here before.
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#38 | ||||
Get EcoBoosted
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW: Newcastle, Sydney & Wollongong
Posts: 1,876
|
Quote:
![]() Quote:
|
||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#39 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Canberra
Posts: 13,393
|
I won't buy one while the petrol is still a feasible option.
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#40 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,146
|
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#41 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Quote:
I take his point, and I get where he's coming from to a degree, and I'll admit that I don't fully understand it all, and that EV's may well be extremely efficient, but in Australia at least (excluding Tasmania), with the way we produce our power, EV's make little sense. When we switch to nuclear power, solar, wind or whatever it might be in the future, then they make heaps of sense, and I'll be happy to make the switch. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#42 | ||
Young Ford Enthusiast
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: NQ
Posts: 287
|
only get one if its oz made (not that that will ever happen)
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#43 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
|
Quote:
you boil the kettle for your coffee how many times per week? youll find that will cost you $4.00 at least..
__________________
I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#44 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Quote:
![]() |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#45 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canberra
Posts: 182
|
in a city and want to be environment friendly - just ride a push bike lol Get some good exercise while you're saving the world so to speak. Donate the 50k that you would pay for the electric car to some environmentally friendly cause
__________________
arguing on the internet is like running in the special olympics, even if you win, you're still a retard! |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#46 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
I've just done a little bit of research quickly. Now, I'm no expert by any means on the subject, but from what I can find, if you had a 20 minute each way travel to work, an electric car would use the equivalent of 5kWhr. A 2000W kettle uses 2kW an hour if boiled constantly for that entire hour. So to recharge 5kW is like boiling a 5000W kettle for the duration of recharge (usually 8 hours or more?)
I'm happy to be proven wrong here. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#47 | |||
Get EcoBoosted
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NSW: Newcastle, Sydney & Wollongong
Posts: 1,876
|
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#48 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
|
Quote:
about the same as an lcd television
__________________
I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#49 | |||
Regular Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 252
|
Quote:
Back on topic....... Never |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#50 | ||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Victoria
Posts: 5,556
|
Give me internal combustion...come up with alternative fuel, but electric cars, yawn, only if I have no choice...
__________________
2021 Focus ST-3 Mountune Enhanced |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#51 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#52 | ||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
|
the tesler in my opinion would be a niche product,
the volt, fusion, leaf, prius,,would be more main stream..yes a hybrid. allso suplemental charging overnight would be "off peak" so extra load on the grid is a mute point
__________________
I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
|
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#53 | ||
Regular Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Orange, NSW
Posts: 164
|
I'll add one more thing. Australia has huge reserves of natural gas. Natural gas power plants have similar (slightly higher) efficiencies than coal power plants when generating electricity, or around 35-40%. Here's the cool part. When they're used on the smaller scale for Distributed Generation, for example each city has many small power plants they can be as high as 80% efficient if used for Cogeneration. This means you get electricity, and basically get your heating, hot water and cooling for free. This is not science-fiction. It's reality. There are already many cities around the world that use this technology. New York has used it for decades. Now you'd think that this only applies to large cities, but on the contrary... If anything it better suits small towns and remote communities than the centralised grid system we have. It reduces their reliance on State owned and controlled power. There are already many companies producing these gas turbines for this purpose.
Natural gas is still a fossil fuel, yes, and it won't last forever, but for every Joule of energy derived from it as opposed to coal, you create half as much CO2. So for a coal power plant to be equal, it would have to be over 100% efficient. Impossible. I see natural gas to be a stop gap measure and backup as we make the transition to more alternative forms of energy. I'm not opposed to nuclear, either. I just don't see it happening. So the point is: Run your car on electricity derived from natural gas or some other alternative energy and its efficiency and carbon footprint will leave internal combustion for dead. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#54 | ||||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Quote:
Charging overnight is only off peak because it's a low load time on the grid. Just as example, but if electric, battery only vehicles really took off, and in the next say 5 years there were a few hundred thousand sold, and everyone was charging them at night during the off peak time, don't you think it would quickly become peak time? Just saying... Food for thought. Quote:
It makes a lot of sense, and using natural gas is such a logical step for us in Australia as we have such an enormous amount of it. We sell it to the rest of the world for pennies, and barely use it ourselves. Like I said before, I'm all for battery only electric cars, IF, the way we produce the power that powers the batteries is cleaner and preferably renewable, and the batteries are being fully recycled. Last edited by Nic85; 12-02-2012 at 12:37 PM. |
||||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#55 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 18,985
|
bongo beatin doo goodin hairy armpitted electric car loonys need to grow some....
electric car.. ![]() its not a car.. |
||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#56 | |||
VFII SS UTE
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Central Coast
Posts: 6,353
|
Quote:
__________________
I don't often hear the sound of a screaming LSX. But when I do, So do the neighbours.. GO SOUTHS
|
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#57 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Quote:
The government invest money into the local manufacturers to make battery only electric vehicles with a 500km range and reasonable performance for the average Mazda 3 / Toyota Corolla buying type at around $25k. They then offer extremely cheap solar installs into households for people to charge their new electric vehicles with completely free and renewable power. The government then buy shares in the local companies and patent any original technologies. The car buying public are happy to buy the electric cars and charge them for free, we keep jobs in Australia and a sustainable future for our car manufacturing, and also lower our carbon footprint and reliance on fossil fuels. I'll wake up any minute now... ![]() |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#58 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,489
|
Quote:
On topic, I would definately buy an electric car as my daily. Think its ther future no doubt. Anything to save a few $$ but would never buy one as long as V8s/Ts etc exist as my "weekend" car. |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#59 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 677
|
Quote:
http://www.iris.tas.gov.au/infrastru...ly/electricity |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#60 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,489
|
Quote:
I live in Tassie and we get absolutely shafted on power. Both in price and service ![]() If Electric cars ever happen, guarantee Tas will be light years behind in getting it all together though! (awesome place to live though) |
|||
![]() |
![]() ![]() |