**GM preparing for bankruptcy** - Page 13

King Nothing · 01-06-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Pretty good for Ford & FPV though!

Not good for us though. No competition = lower driver for improvement.

ltd · 01-06-2009, 06:30 PM

Ford did a different deal, but strictly no government money.
Either way, for all of those employed in GM and their companies, I hope not too many people lose their jobs.

Wally · 01-06-2009, 06:37 PM

Yes brand loyalty is all well and good, but many people have suffered because of poor management of the companies and the US finacial markets. It must be devastating to lose a job you have had for life and see your pension go down the gurgler with it.

Interesting timeline:

http://business.theage.com.au/busine...0601-bshx.html

Paxton · 01-06-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Pretty good for Ford & FPV though!

Is it?

If Holden are in trouble/close down, that is the end of Ford Australia. Competition breeds competition.

GT69 · 01-06-2009, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Is it?

If Holden are in trouble/close down, that is the end of Ford Australia. Competition breeds competition.

Yeah because the 2000 odd falcons sold monthly dont count for anything and if holden shut down all the ex commodore buyers and falcon owners will go and buy a daewoo instead? Give me a break.

burnz · 01-06-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT69

Yeah because the 2000 odd falcons sold monthly dont count for anything and if holden shut down all the ex commodore buyers and falcon owners will go and buy a daewoo instead? Give me a break.

sarcasm aside, the thousand's of small part supplier will go broke and ford will
source from overseas, this is still not good for ford and the buying public.

GT69 · 01-06-2009, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

sarcasm aside, the thousand's of small part supplier will go broke and ford will
source from overseas, this is still not good for ford and the buying public.

Suppiers are suppliers. When there is demand they will make sure they have supply. Remember these are companies unto themselves. They'll have to cut back but they'll still be there.

Remember the magna? the big 4 family sedans, what happened? Holden, Ford and Toyota picked up sales.

People had this perception that if holden closes it'll be mad max II or something. Companies will downsize, Toyota and Ford will pick up sales. Thats it.

The world wont stop turning. Australia wont become a barren waste land. The buying public will move to a different product.

Wally · 01-06-2009, 07:20 PM

I thought the large car segment continued to shrink after the demise of the Magna?

I see the Oz Govt is about to underwrite $550 milliion to Ford dealers. The US conditions aside, it's pretty obvious our local car industry is universally dependenet on taxpayer dollars, to survive, whatever the brand.

The govt has also hinted it will underwrite Holden if a worst case scenario occurs.

phillyc · 01-06-2009, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

I see the Oz Govt is about to underwrite $550 milliion to Ford dealers. The govt has also hinted it will underwrite Holden if a worst case scenario occurs.

Where did you get that information from?

There was talk a few months ago to setup a fund backed/guaranteed by the Aus Fed Gov't and funded by the big banks to replace the car-financing after GMAC & Ford Credit stopped making new loans. AFAIK The Aus Gov't is not underwriting any Ford dealers.

Is this what you are confused with?

4Vman · 01-06-2009, 08:22 PM

Isnt this thread about GM's bankruptsy? not Fords position???

phillyc · 01-06-2009, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton

Is it?

If Holden are in trouble/close down, that is the end of Ford Australia. Competition breeds competition.

Paxton, you've taken me out of context on that.

I wasn't saying it would be good to see GM Holden / HSV go by the wayside (except of course to rid ourselves of that scummy Tom Walkinshaw - which is a different matter entirely.) I've always maintained that keeping manufacturing in Australia is an essential.

I was saying, it will be great to see Ford / FPV giving GM Holden / HSV a flogging in the V8 performance car division with a much superior new V8 versus what will be a non-improved GM product.

phillyc · 01-06-2009, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Isnt this thread about GM's bankruptsy? not Fords position???

Yeah and Wally has tried to throw his usual GM bias in it.

GM are the ones in serious trouble. GMH are highly endangered.

Wally · 01-06-2009, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Where did you get that information from?

There was talk a few months ago to setup a fund backed/guaranteed by the Aus Fed Gov't and funded by the big banks to replace the car-financing after GMAC & Ford Credit stopped making new loans. AFAIK The Aus Gov't is not underwriting any Ford dealers.

Is this what you are confused with?

It's freely available in the news feeds and no I'm not confused at all. I'm talking about GMAC/General Electric Co bank support. The $550m is to shore up Ford Credit. Credit Suisse will handle the transactions. I track the stock market so most of the information I work on is from those sources.

naddis01 · 01-06-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

I thought the large car segment continued to shrink after the demise of the Magna?

On a side note... Has the large car market actually shrunk as much as we have been led to beleive? Take a look at the size of 'medium' cars now. The Mazda 6 is the size of a VS commodore. Then theres the camry. Mondeo. Accord. etc etc. It would be interesting to see the figures with these cars included in the large car bracket.

Paxton · 01-06-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Paxton, you've taken me out of context on that.

I wasn't saying it would be good to see GM Holden / HSV go by the wayside (except of course to rid ourselves of that scummy Tom Walkinshaw - which is a different matter entirely.) I've always maintained that keeping manufacturing in Australia is an essential.

I was saying, it will be great to see Ford / FPV giving GM Holden / HSV a flogging in the V8 performance car division with a much superior new V8 versus what will be a non-improved GM product.

Sorry mate, you're right.

I do get a little annoyed at people who are happy that GM is in the pooh, and those that think Holden closing down would be a good thing. Not only would it be a bad thing, but would cost many thousands of jobs. Ford need Holden, and Holden need Ford.

TERMINATOR X · 01-06-2009, 08:33 PM

What a touchy subject. As a ford man is it good or is it bad?
I say bad. The heritage will be lost and it just won't be the same. Sad really.
For the ford blokes that think this is great it's not. We are doing OK and very well in the V8 Supercars we don't need anymore victorys.

Windsor220 · 01-06-2009, 08:44 PM

When do we hear from GM themself on the bankruptcy? I thought an anouncement was supposed to be made a few hours ago.

vztrt · 01-06-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

When do we hear from GM themself on the bankruptcy? I thought an anouncement was supposed to be made a few hours ago.

2am Tuesday our time.

Windsor220 · 01-06-2009, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

2am Tuesday our time.

Ah I thought it was 2pm today. Shows what I know about time zones.

Wally · 01-06-2009, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Yeah and Wally has tried to throw his usual GM bias in it.

GM are the ones in serious trouble. GMH are highly endangered.

How many times do I need to post that I don't have a bias. I just look at these things dispassionately. There's no need to refer to me in third party, talk to me direct mano-a-mano... you don't need a posse to take potshots at me; I won't back bite you.

US vehicle sales are down from 17million in 2005 to 9million. In anyone's books that's dire news for all concerned. The only thing that is going to keep May sales around April's is a spike in Chrysler business. Analysts are worried Ford may be the biggest loser when GM emerges from chapter 11 leaner, debt relieved and govt backed. This is why they suffered a one day 17% drop in share price. Ford are after trophy sales while GM are in limbo, but they are still losing sales volumes. Ford's position is very relevant to GM's fortunes and vice versa.

For your record please read my previous posts. I have stated quite clearly I think Ford should be rewarded for their business accumen and GM pinged for very poor management. It's your choice to actually read what I say or continue to wear rose coloured glasses.

Wally · 01-06-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

When do we hear from GM themself on the bankruptcy? I thought an anouncement was supposed to be made a few hours ago.

A US Govt administrator waited until the Tokyo exchanged closed, before letting the markets know GM will go through a revolving door. It's in the news feeds.

R-Design · 01-06-2009, 10:26 PM

An interesting podcast on the difficulties facing the automotive industry globally. It also touches on GMH & Ford AU (possible future or not of Falcon).

http://www.caradvice.com.au/31861/ca...h-tom-elliott/

HSE2 · 01-06-2009, 10:33 PM

http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Se...or-bankruptcy/

Falc'man · 01-06-2009, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Ford are after trophy sales while GM are in limbo, but they are still losing sales volumes. Ford's position is very relevant to GM's fortunes and vice versa.

How is Ford "after trophy sales" when they started to re-structure way before any of this was happening, or that they pressed on with R&D and didn't stop spending on new car developments in the middle of GFC? They're clearly building better, quality products; GM has relied too much on it's arrogant reputation, then in recent times looked for the cheap Korean alternative.

I do agree, they (GM) will come out of all this alot better off than they are at the moment, but that is obvious, isn't it? However, it's to the detriment of their own reputation, and even worse, the detriment of tens of thousands without jobs. They were too stubborn to restructure. It was as far back as the early eighties they were advised to shape up... plenty of warning... now they get a "get-out-of-jail/gaol" card.

Falc'man · 01-06-2009, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Ford are after trophy sales while GM are in limbo, but they are still losing sales volumes. Ford's position is very relevant to GM's fortunes and vice versa.

How is Ford "after trophy sales" when they started to re-structure way before any of this was happening, or that they pressed on with R&D and didn't stop spending on new car developments in the middle of GFC? They're clearly building better, quality products; GM has relied too much on it's arrogant reputation, then in recent times looked for the cheap Korean alternative.

I do agree, they (GM) will come out of all this alot better off than they are at the moment, but that is obvious, isn't it? However, it's to the detriment of their own reputation, and even worse, the detriment of tens of thousands without jobs. They were too stubborn to restructure. It was as far back as the early eighties they were advised to shape up... plenty of warning... now they get a "get-out-of-jail/gaol" card.

shakows · 01-06-2009, 11:11 PM

Yep the ball is rolling

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...e-to-Fiat-OK-d

Falc'man · 01-06-2009, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Ford are after trophy sales while GM are in limbo, but they are still losing sales volumes. Ford's position is very relevant to GM's fortunes and vice versa.

How is Ford "after trophy sales" when they started to re-structure way before any of this was happening, or that they pressed on with R&D and didn't stop spending on new car developments in the middle of GFC? They're clearly building better, quality products; GM has relied too much on it's arrogant reputation, then in recent times looked for the cheap Korean alternative.

I do agree, they (GM) will come out of all this alot better off than they are at the moment, but that is obvious, isn't it? However, it's to the detriment of their own reputation, and even worse, the detriment of tens of thousands without jobs. They were too stubborn to restructure. It was as far back as the early eighties they were advised to shape up... plenty of warning...

shakows · 01-06-2009, 11:14 PM

Yep the ball is rolling

http://www.detnews.com/article/20090...e-to-Fiat-OK-d

Falc'man · 01-06-2009, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Ford are after trophy sales while GM are in limbo, but they are still losing sales volumes. Ford's position is very relevant to GM's fortunes and vice versa.

How is Ford "after trophy sales" when they started to re-structure way before any of this was happening, or that they pressed on with R&D and didn't stop spending on new car developments in the middle of GFC? They're clearly building better, quality products; GM has relied too much on it's arrogant ways, then in recent times looked for the cheap Korean alternative.

I do agree, they (GM) will come out of all this alot better off than they are at the moment, but that is obvious, isn't it? However, it's to the detriment of their own reputation, and even worse, the detriment of tens of thousands without jobs. They were too stubborn to restructure. It was as far back as the early eighties they were advised to shape up... plenty of warning...

vztrt · 02-06-2009, 12:50 AM

Some more on the filing for bankruptcy.

http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-n...0601-bt2v.html

Quote:

M files for bankruptcy
June 1, 2009 - 11:29PM

General Motors filed for bankruptcy protection Monday, culminating the collapse of the automaker that once symbolized American global industrial might.

The filing in the same New York court that approved a speedy restructuring for Chrysler aims to allow GM to re-emerge as a new, leaner company within 60 to 90 days.

GM listed asset of 82.3 billion US dollars and debts of 172.8 billion in the case, assigned to Judge Robert Gerber, in one of the biggest bankruptcy cases in US history.

The US industrial icon enters the process with billions in government financing and agreements already in place to cut labor costs, swap much of its debt for equity and reduce its liabilities by 50 percent.

Senior US officials pledged to provide 30 billion US dollars to the "new GM" to emerge from the process, on top of nearly 20 billion US dollars already loaned to the ailing firm.

The deal would give the US government a 60 percent stake in the auto giant, while the governments of Canada and Ontario, which have several GM factories, will provide an additional 9.5 billion US dollars in financing and receive a 12 percent stake.

The European Opel and Vauxhall subsidiaries are leaving the GM empire under a rescue engineered this weekend in Germany with support from a Canadian company and a Russian bank.

Officials said the process is expected to be similar to that of Chrysler, which is expected to emerge from bankruptcy protection this week after just over a month.

However, the process will not be "as speedy as Chrysler because GM is a far larger, far more complicated global company," senior administration officials cautioned.

President Barack Obama, who had given GM a deadline to come up with a viability plan, was to hold a press conference at 11:55 am (1555 GMT) Monday to discuss the state of the automotive industry.

Newly appointed GM chief executive officer Fritz Henderson, who is expected to continue to steer the new company, will speak to the media shortly afterwards.

The largest US automaker will close 11 plants and idle three others as it slashes its operating costs in order to lower its break-even point by 40 percent in terms of overall US industry sales.

Officials cautioned that the Obama administration has no intention of nationalizing General Motors over the long term and will not be participating in its day-to-day operations.

"The goal is to promote strong viable companies that can become profitable quickly and contribute to economic growth and jobs without government involvement," a senior US official said.

Creditors holding about 54 percent of General's Motors bonds agreed to a plan that would swap 27.1 billion US dollars in debt for a 10 percent stake and warrants allowing them to buy an additional 15 percent stake, officials said.

Bondholders who rejected the plan could still fight it in court, but the government maintains they could end up with little or nothing if they take that path.

A retiree health care trust will receive a 17.5 percent stake in the new GM and 6.5 billion US dollars in preferred stock in exchange for forgiving much of a 20-billion-dollar obligation.

Employees will continue to be paid and GM will immediately seek permission to continue to pay suppliers and honor customer warranties.

GM will also offer about 40 percent of its dealers 18 months to wind down their operations and will immediately seek permission to honor incentives offered to its remaining dealers, under a plan to shrink the number of GM sales outlets.

The GM filing came just hours after a US bankruptcy judge approved the sale of distressed US automaker Chrysler to a group led by Fiat, saying this was the only was to save the company and paving the way for its emergence from bankruptcy.

Judge Arthur Gonzalez wrote in his ruling that the deal was "the only option that is currently viable."

The third-biggest US automaker filed for bankruptcy April 30 and is seeking a tie-up with Fiat in a plan presented as the only way to save the company from liquidation.

The government, which is also providing financing for the deal, says a new Chrysler company could be born within days of approval for the bankruptcy.

Fiat will initially get a 20 percent stake in Chrysler with an option to buy more.

In return, Fiat will allow access to its technology to enable the US carmaker to make the smaller, greener cars that are increasingly in demand.

The US Treasury has provided Chrysler with some nine billion US dollars in emergency aid. Fiat must repay this money if it wants to take a majority stake in the Detroit firm.

© 2009 AFP