Future of Ford and Holden Could be Revealed in Detroit this week - Page 10

jpd80 · 19-01-2011, 05:16 PM

Marin Burela canceled the V6 and revived the I-6 because it cost less to do,
$21 million Vs laying off 600 people and paying for someone else's engines...
I wonder if other "false economies" are being pushed by the Ford NA team
in order to keep their factories full at the expense of other regions like FoA..

Maybe FoA's business plan proves that local RWD products are still preferred and viable,
perhaps the cost of changing from one form to another can be more expensive than evolution.

Road_Warrior · 19-01-2011, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Marin Burela canceled the V6 and revived the I-6 because it cost less to do,
$21 million Vs laying off 600 people and paying for someone else's engines...
I wonder if other "false economies" are being pushed by the Ford NA team
in order to keep their factories full at the expense of other regions like FoA..

Maybe FoA's business plan proves that local RWD products are still preferred and viable,
perhaps the cost of changing from one form to another can be more expensive than evolution.

In Tom Gorman's defence, he did say at the time when the V6 decision was made, that moving to a global/corporate engine in the Falcon from an orphan engine was the first step in finding an export opportunity for the Falcon.

colin55 · 19-01-2011, 07:00 PM

I for one prefer RWD and it is NOT because I do burnouts...

Try this in your large FWD camry - 5 people and a boot full of stuff; in the rain and do a hill start.... Absolute rubish.

try drive 'spirited' through a corner and apply some power before exiting the corner, oh wow there is understeer...

Try pull a boat trailer up a ramp...

The only good thing about FWD is price.

The only cars that can get away with FWD are small cars. Even then a RWD would be better.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I am sick of being called a "bogan that does burnouts " because I prefer a superior setup!

FPV GTHO · 19-01-2011, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin55

try drive 'spirited' through a corner and apply some power before exiting the corner, oh wow there is understeer...

Thats about innacurate as your beef that RWD is for bogans. The right throttle control, and even driven spiritedly FWD is no drama. Too many people are either not used to feedback coming back through the steering, or their idea of accelerating is going straight to a high percentage of throttle travel.

EgoFG · 20-01-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Thats about innacurate as your beef that RWD is for bogans. The right throttle control, and even driven spiritedly FWD is no drama. Too many people are either not used to feedback coming back through the steering, or their idea of accelerating is going straight to a high percentage of throttle travel.

Yep it would be better to state that RWD is more forgiving on power through a corner - in an RWD there is less need for "The right throttle control"

When accelerating in a corner at the limits RWD lets go progressively and it can be easily held in the grey area. FWD actually hold on longer, but when they let go it is less progressive and requires more effort to maintain control.

colin55 · 20-01-2011, 09:05 AM

I didnt say RWD is for bogans - I am annoyed that people say that RWD is for bogans... The word bogan is a load of cr@p, it gets thrown at anyone that likes anything made in Aus..

Yes FWD car can be driven quick, I am of the opinion that an equivelent car in RWD is better.

I know this is a stretch - but F1 is RWD for a reason...

Joe5619 · 20-01-2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin55

I know this is a stretch - but F1 is RWD for a reason...

And there is a reason why WRC is AWD!!!

**Grunter** · 20-01-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

And there is a reason why WRC is AWD!!!

And why planes have wings!!!

Both examples are pretty irrelevant, however at a strech, F1's do drive on the same stuff as Falcons where WRC is mostly dirt.

Quicksand · 20-01-2011, 10:57 AM

So....was the future of Ford and Holden revealed in Detroit last week?

Bud Bud · 20-01-2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

In Tom Gorman's defence, he did say at the time when the V6 decision was made, that moving to a global/corporate engine in the Falcon from an orphan engine was the first step in finding an export opportunity for the Falcon.

And he may have been proved right! Was dropping the notion of incorporating a global V6 engine into the Falcon in favour of keeping the I6 made to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy or was it because the cost of changing to the V6 not warranted if the cycle of the current Falcon was in doubt after 2015?

I always thought that this was not good to reverse the decision to axe the I6 by Ford Aus at the time. I know that the I6 is the pick of the bunch amongst the enthusiasts so there is no point in arguing its case here, this is not what it is about, because for the rest of the 99% buying public, they just do not care. One could even argue that changing to a global engine back then could have even rejuvenated interest in the local Falcon as they could have even sold it as a positive and progressive move forward even if "we" know better. This could even have opened new doors globally as well, who knows but One thing is for sure, this decision to keep the I6 going after the initial pain was soaked up after the news of its demise was announced has now backfired on Ford Aus and was some how lost on the general public because it did not lead to any new growth in sales, and one could even argue that it has actually hurt the Falcon in more ways than one in the end.

The future news for the Falcon is not good either as the market for this larger size (including engine size) car continues to shrink, and no matter how much we jump up and down about, there is no room left for a specialised local car in this globalised (if there is such a word) market anymore. They will only be eventually eaten alive by their other global competitors (which is happening now anyway) because of economies of scale.

Bud Bud

Brazen · 20-01-2011, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

And he may have been proved right! Was dropping the notion of incorporating a global V6 engine into the Falcon in favour of keeping the I6 made to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy or was it because the cost of changing to the V6 not warranted if the cycle of the current Falcon was in doubt after 2015?

I always thought that this was not good to reverse the decision to axe the I6 by Ford Aus at the time. I know that the I6 is the pick of the bunch amongst the enthusiasts so there is no point in arguing its case here, this is not what it is about, because for the rest of the 99% buying public, they just do not care. One could even argue that changing to a global engine back then could have even rejuvenated interest in the local Falcon as they could have even sold it as a positive and progressive move forward even if "we" know better. This could even have opened new doors globally as well, who knows but One thing is for sure, this decision to keep the I6 going after the initial pain was soaked up after the news of its demise was announced has now backfired on Ford Aus and was some how lost on the general public because it did not lead to any new growth in sales, and one could even argue that it has actually hurt the Falcon in more ways than one in the end.

The future news for the Falcon is not good either as the market for this larger size (including engine size) car continues to shrink, and no matter how much we jump up and down about, there is no room left for a specialised local car in this globalised (if there is such a word) market anymore. They will only be eventually eaten alive by their other global competitors (which is happening now anyway) because of economies of scale.

Bud Bud

Your right, global V6 would have been a shot in the arm in some respects, for me it signalled the Falcon going global, becoming a Ford with potential..

For me one of the saddest days in Ford AUs history is when Burela announced the cancellation of locally produced next gen Focus (and possible Focus Ute, Electric Focus, Kuga, C-Max etc) and the global V6. I immediately thought "oh cr.., they are shutting down".

I actually dont prefer the V6, but because any schmuck knows they cannot survive on 28,000 Falcons a year with the biggest buyer being cut-throat rental operators (I dont care what people say, I dont think its sustainable for an indigenous model), I saw the V6 as a way to export glory.

Since then though they have reiterated they will continue building here and on this forum it was said it was one of the best things ever.. but I still feel it just killed any future potential with Ford AU for the next 6 or 7 years, this next gen Falcon will be pivotal.

Joe5619 · 20-01-2011, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunter

And why planes have wings!!!

I'm no expert, but I think it has something to with wing & getting the plane off the floor!! Why do you ask??

Joe5619 · 20-01-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunter

And why planes have wings!!!

Both examples are pretty irrelevant, however at a strech, F1's do drive on the same stuff as Falcons where WRC is mostly dirt.

My point was, just becuase F1's do it, does not mean it is right or better!!! I gave a perfect example of how RWD was not the best!!

colin55 · 20-01-2011, 01:38 PM

Think about it this way.

When breaking hard the rear of the car lifts and the front dips, therefore you have more pressure on the front wheels giving you more grip. This is why the brake bias is approx 70% front, 30% rear.

Accelerating is the opposite of this, so we can say that for max acceleration/grip there should be approx 30:70 power split...

Front wheel drive is about as useful as trying to stop using the handbrake.. Sure it works if you don’t pull it too hard.

So I feel safe in saying for max acceleration on a vehicle 4wd is the best with approx 30:70 power split. down side is weight/cost. So you have a choice pick rear and get the 70% or pick front and get 30%.

I obviously don’t know if 30:70 is correct, could be 40:60..

Chilliman · 20-01-2011, 05:39 PM

For all the RWD purists - if Falcon is paired with Mustang your RWD wishes will be fulfilled, if Falcon goes FWD/AWD the Mustang will be coming down under to slake you RWD thirst....problem solvered!

**Polyal** · 20-01-2011, 05:47 PM

^^Put like that and if the price of the mustang didn't become inflated like most other imports then I wouldn't cry so much.

But....I still think the Falcon can/will play a role in the future. If it happens to be a more "globalisied" version then so be it.

HULK EF · 20-01-2011, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilliman

For all the RWD purists - if Falcon is paired with Mustang your RWD wishes will be fulfilled, if Falcon goes FWD/AWD the Mustang will be coming down under to slake you RWD thirst....problem solvered!

^^^ Hopefully the former... if you wanted a family car in RWD a mustang doesnt realy fit the bill.. lol

colin55 · 20-01-2011, 05:52 PM

The mustang would be a nice car to have, they are fairly cheep in the US so provided it doesnt cost too much to manufacture them RHD they should easily be under 50k

Ford Falcon XR6 · 20-01-2011, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin55

I for one prefer RWD and it is NOT because I do burnouts...

Try this in your large FWD camry - 5 people and a boot full of stuff; in the rain and do a hill start.... Absolute rubish.

try drive 'spirited' through a corner and apply some power before exiting the corner, oh wow there is understeer...

Try pull a boat trailer up a ramp...

The only good thing about FWD is price.

The only cars that can get away with FWD are small cars. Even then a RWD would be better.

Sorry if I sound rude, but I am sick of being called a "bogan that does burnouts " because I prefer a superior setup!

Agreed 100%

jpd80 · 20-01-2011, 08:04 PM

What if FoA's next RWD Falcon looks more like a Jaguar XF?
It could then spawn a two door coupe with shorter wheelbase.....

ivorya · 20-01-2011, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

What if FoA's next RWD Falcon looks more like a Jaguar XF?
It could then spawn a two door coupe with shorter wheelbase.....

hmmmmmmmmmmm sexy!! Now your talking.............................

EDIT::::
And with a global engine range, this car could finally end up being a Global Ford Car::::

Brazen · 20-01-2011, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

What if FoA's next RWD Falcon looks more like a Jaguar XF?
It could then spawn a two door coupe with shorter wheelbase.....

Mate, that thing would be the biggest selling car in the country with a Ford Falcon badge on the back. This is what the FG should of been...

LeadFoot81 · 20-01-2011, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Mate, that thing would be the biggest selling car in the country with a Ford Falcon badge on the back. This is what the FG should of been...

Not just a Ford Falcon badge, but a Ford Falcon *price* would make it very popular indeed!

jpd80 · 20-01-2011, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

Mate, that thing would be the biggest selling car in the country with a Ford Falcon badge on the back. This is what the FG should of been...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeadFoot81

Not just a Ford Falcon badge, but a Ford Falcon *price* would make it very popular indeed!

A reasonably reliable source in the US has been hinting at this for just under 12 months,
maybe something short of a platform but more like common engineering modules
available for use by various regions but still giving pretty good scales of economy...

Aust. = Falcon?
US = Mustang?
Dunton (UK) = Capri?
Cologne = RWD Focus/M3?

Brazen · 20-01-2011, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

A reasonably reliable source in the US has been hinting at this for just under 12 months,
maybe something short of a platform but more like common engineering modules
available for use by various regions but still giving pretty good scales of economy...

Aust. = Falcon?
US = Mustang?
Dunton (UK) = Capri?
Cologne = RWD Focus/M3?

jdp80, (I know we often disagree) but you always seem to know what your talking about so Im pretty excited about this info. I personally see a massive gap in the market for a modern day RWD Scorpio/Granada in Europe and South America.

Incredibly, the Mondeo is the flagship car in most of the Ford world (especially with the death of Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar), I personally dont see Lincoln going global, so I see a real niche for the Falcon to sit above the Mondeo (in low volumes) in 30 or so countries.

LeadFoot81 · 20-01-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

A reasonably reliable source in the US has been hinting at this for just under 12 months,
maybe something short of a platform but more like common engineering modules
available for use by various regions but still giving pretty good scales of economy...

Aust. = Falcon?
US = Mustang?
Dunton (UK) = Capri?
Cologne = RWD Focus/M3?

That would make perfect sense, lots of bits and pieces could be shared under the skin (that the customer isn't aware of/doesnt care about) fingers crossed this is what Ford fans around the world end up with.

jpd80 · 20-01-2011, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

jdp80, (I know we often disagree) but you always seem to know what your talking about so Im pretty excited about this info. I personally see a massive gap in the market for a modern day RWD Scorpio/Granada in Europe and South America.

Incredibly, the Mondeo is the flagship car in most of the Ford world (especially with the death of Volvo, Land Rover, Jaguar), I personally dont see Lincoln going global, so I see a real niche for the Falcon to sit above the Mondeo (in low volumes) in 30 or so countries.

Don't take it as gospel but for obvious reasons, there is a bit of misdirection afoot re global platforms.

Don't know about the rest of you but I would be glad if we got ours and any one of the other three...

Brazen · 20-01-2011, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Don't take it as gospel but for obvious reasons, there is a bit of misdirection afoot re global platforms.

Don't know about the rest of you but I would be glad if we got ours and any one of the other three...

I have the feeling the mis-information from Ford is to lull GM into making a mistake - not too hard, knowing their track record hahaha.

I have been one of the first to see the positive aspects of Falcon going FWD/AWD due to the global reach and technology, but deep down I know that developed countries like Australia, should fully exploit profitable niches that no other country does- In the end I think Ford should continue developing RWD in this country, dont bother with FWD as we will be competing with every other car producing country on the planet.

I hope it remains RWD for the country's sake (wow this is getting deep), but understand if it cant.

But in the end I know this, if I ever had to trust a rear-wheel-drive platform to anyone, I would walk past Mercedes, I would walk past BMW and go straight to the front door of that anonymous looking building in Broadmeadows, Australia.

FPV GTHO · 20-01-2011, 11:38 PM

Not that long ago there were reported plans to build a new Thunderbird with a low roofline like the MB CLS. That was to be alongside the normal roofline Falcon and the Mustang also having a unique floor with a Lincoln version as well. Perhaps the standard roof version got nixed and FoA are hedging their bets on a ThunderFalcon?

Dr Smith · 21-01-2011, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brazen

I have the feeling the mis-information from Ford is to lull GM into making a mistake - not too hard, knowing their track record hahaha.

I have been one of the first to see the positive aspects of Falcon going FWD/AWD due to the global reach and technology, but deep down I know that developed countries like Australia, should fully exploit profitable niches that no other country does- In the end I think Ford should continue developing RWD in this country, dont bother with FWD as we will be competing with every other car producing country on the planet.

I hope it remains RWD for the country's sake (wow this is getting deep), but understand if it cant.

But in the end I know this, if I ever had to trust a rear-wheel-drive platform to anyone, I would walk past Mercedes, I would walk past BMW and go straight to the front door of that anonymous looking building in Broadmeadows, Australia.

It's so anonymous you actually need to go one more suburb into Campbellfield, however I can see what you mean.