Is ESP/DSC/ESC all hype?

[malazn mafia]

Just wondering lately what's the go with Stability Control systems being mandatory on all cars in a few years. Are they all that effective in avoiding a crash? I'd understand that they probably be great for the novice driver, or non-driving enthusiast, which would be high percentage of the population. But what about those of us who have off-road/track experience and know how to handle a car that's at it limits or regain control in poor conditions? Would the car be actually interfering with the driver's "normal" reaction in emergency situations, or is Stability Control designed to actually stop all emergency situations from happening altogether :

[Falcon Coupe]

You must not have seen the FG XR8 demo video on release, i was amazed when the journo yanked the wheel hard at well over 100kph, the car started to turn then composed itself, it would have been doing spins down the track with out the electronics.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by Falcon Coupe

You must not have seen the FG XR8 demo video on release, i was amazed when the journo yanked the wheel hard at well over 100kph, the car started to turn then composed itself, it would have been doing spins down the track with out the electronics.

Interesting.. where did you see this video?

[mcnews]

Best stability control I have used is on our Mazda RX8, it has a couple of stages of intervention, one allows quite a fair bit of slip before intervening. In the wet it is just absolutely ridiculous, enter a roundabout at a ridiculous speed so it starts sliding the front as you turn while putting the boot in and it just go round with the front and back pushing and sliding and catching. Hilarious.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Just wondering lately what's the go with Stability Control systems being mandatory on all cars in a few years. Are they all that effective in avoiding a crash?...

Hell YES!

Best idea since disc brakes, seat belts and ABS :

There was a Territory video when it was reelased too - fantastic to watch.

Mate, it's one thing to know how to handle a car on a race track under controlled conditions when you can anticipate what's about to happen but altogether different when something happens unexpectedly and reflex actions take over.

Examples are a kid on a bicycle coming from between parked cars or something falling off the truck in front of you at highway speeds. Its these swerve and recover manouveres that DSC is designed for as well as keeping your car on track when you overstep your driving abilities :

[malazn mafia]

Hmm.. so a car equipped with ESP would make quicker times around a track than a normal racecar, considering you could brake/turn much later than would be naturally possible in a car without ESP? Anybody with an ESP equipped car taken it to the track and can comment on the diference?

[Falcon Coupe]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Interesting.. where did you see this video?

Somewhere in the thread about the FG release, amongst a few thousand posts. :(

[Eu-GenixX]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Hmm.. so a car equipped with ESP would make quicker times around a track than a normal racecar, considering you could brake/turn much later than would be naturally possible in a car without ESP? Anybody with an ESP equipped car taken it to the track and can comment on the diference?

i would dare to say that i doubt it's quicker.... the system is designed for safety.. and to slow the car/make it controllable...

not to help you take corners quicker.. it will slow the car when you won't want it to in track conditions...

[Danny]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Hmm.. so a car equipped with ESP would make quicker times around a track than a normal racecar, considering you could brake/turn much later than would be naturally possible in a car without ESP? Anybody with an ESP equipped car taken it to the track and can comment on the diference?

Not exactly,

See ESP can detect a slide before the average driver even realizes that the steering input they just chose was incorrect. Most vehicles are actually slowed down during an average ESP intervention, as a good system will only intervene when the vehicle has reached its maximum limit, and has commenced the beginnings of an out of control slide.

Generally on a track, we choose our line, look at where we want to go, point, and squirt, hopefully with little sloppy loss of control. A good driver with a good esp system will find that the system rarely needs to intervene. Some overzealous systems can tend to intervene far too early or too often, or when they are not needed (like some Mercedes Benz, and Audi Systems have been known), ensuring that you will never have any chance of losing control, but slowing the vehicle down in the process. It's why you will often see that most motoring journo's test a car with the ESP off.

Over active or not, ESP does not better lap times simply becasue in theory, it is only summoned to intervene when the driver puts the vehicle into some sort of serious control loss (understeer or oversteer), which in essence eats into lap times anyway whether or not the vehicle is ESP equipped!

Its an Amazing System. I was rounding a corner yesterday in the wet in the 182. I felt the front under steer ever so slightly for a split second, and automatically correct. When the rear went to follow it, before I even knew what was happening, four orange flashes on my dashboard let me know that ESP was intervening to avoid something which may or may not have been disastrous.

Its true what they say, that a rollover could simply be reduced to four orange flashes on the dashboard with ESP equipped.

It is not flawless, and it does not defy physics (you would not be expecting it to help you at 200km/h on gravel or ice). But for your average driver not equipped to forsee kids, or bike riders, or loose loads on trucks, it is a great technology.

[gcg2503]

ESP DSC EBD are much more than "hype"

They work and are definitely needed on today's motor car

I for one am happy knowing that the G6ET has them all

[quirdan]

It's an amazing piece of technology. It's saved me from a potentially disastrous scenario and that is when I realised how good it really was. That was in a naturally aspirated BFII and involved rapidly changing the vehicle's direction to avoid a collision.

Now I drive an FG Turbo coming from a Ford Focus and with that much torque and power and the turbo snap suddenly at your disposal it's certainly very much a useful safety net. I've read it's improved greatly from the preceeding Falcon.

Only problem is I wish it would make an audible noise (in the Falcons) when you overcook something and it intervenes. A little light flashing briefly on the dash isn't enough. I think it's important to know when it's worked its magic so you don't become reliant on it and instead learn to drive without depending on it. Last thing you want is drivers becoming overconfident in their driving skill or the vehicle's handling ability.

[zetec]

Originally Posted by quirdan

It's an amazing piece of technology. It's saved me from a potentially disastrous scenario and that is when I realised how good it really was. That was in a naturally aspirated BFII and involved rapidly changing the vehicle's direction to avoid a collision.

Now I drive an FG Turbo coming from a Ford Focus and with that much torque and power and the turbo snap suddenly at your disposal it's certainly very much a useful safety net. I've read it's improved greatly from the preceeding Falcon.

Only problem is I wish it would make an audible noise (in the Falcons) when you overcook something and it intervenes. A little light flashing briefly on the dash isn't enough. I think it's important to know when it's worked its magic so you don't become reliant on it and instead learn to drive without depending on it. Last thing you want is drivers becoming overconfident in their driving skill or the vehicle's handling ability.

It also saved my life in a focus, an original Mk I 2002 model. they were very tail happy cars and as a result produced some rather blatant lift off oversteer which was fun in controlled conditions.

When it wasn't fun was when I was pushing through a corner at the speed limit and noticed it tightened near the exit. I instinctively lifted the throttle and turned the wheel in, only for the back end to snap - but before I could even fully compute what was happening the little orange light flashed and pulled the tail right back in. One less Focus wrapped around a telegraph pole - literally. Saved me and a mate that day and I've never driven a car without it since.

If you think DSC makes a 5.1second 0-100 best handling Falcon ever any worse, then I recommend you drive one!

ABS, Traction control and ESP explained - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0

Best of them all - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3zLpNxHris (note just how well the only Front wheel Drive vehicle compares to a RWD with DSC. Despite the VERY popular "FACT" on here that RWD is king, these videos show 2 things - DSC is unbeatable on all road surfaces and FWD is remarkably good in slippery conditions as it generally pushes into understeer first which is much easier to regain control from.

It's a safety system designed to combat unseen events, slippery conditions or sudden changes in road conditions/surface. It will even keep a car straight when t-boned in an intersection (within the laws of physics) and stop spinning and secondary impacts after airbags have deployed.

If you want to have fun - just switch it off on the racetrack.

I refuse to ever own a car without it ever again. Period.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Hmm.. so a car equipped with ESP would make quicker times around a track than a normal racecar...

Well they'll be quicker than the normal racecar when its spinning off into the distance or wrapped around some guardrail

Otherwise no.

The current ESP/DSC programming priority is getting it around the race track, not doing it in the absolute fastest time. The same technology could be used to advantage though, as BMW is starting to do with the X6, to direct torque preferentially to either rear wheel to assist through turns ;)

[russellw]

These systems deserve to be recorded in future history as one of the greatest advances in vehicle primary safety ever. Full stop.

Looking back through the fatal accident statistics for the period 1990-2007 (the last years I have) we find that slightly over 40% of them are single vehicle accidents which by their very nature imply some loss of vehicle control.
Regardless of which political football is the popular target of the day (alcohol, speed, fatigue etc.) it would be reasonable to surmise that some form of ESP would have altered the end result in at least a percentage of those accidents and some people would still be alive.

The same probably applies for the 42% of multiple vehicle accidents where it is also reasonable to surmise that a percentage of them may have been avoided altogether or at least had less serious consequences.

It will take some time before the impact of these systems on the data starts to show significant change in much the same way that the introduction of air bags and ABS did but as the national vehicle fleet turns over (which takes about 14 years here) we can look forward to lower fatality rates if not lower actual annual road tolls.

The table below (for Vic) shows how the fatality rates per 100 million km travelled has changed over the last 30 years -



- which has been (largely) a gradually decreasing figure over that time frame.

Unfortunately longer term data for distance travelled isn't available but the rate per 10,000 vehicles data is available since 1950 (below) and it shows a similar trend.



It will be interesting to see how these numbers look in 15 years time.

Cheers
Russ

[Green X]

yeah i got too say when ya give it a bit to much gas around the corner in the T and the back goes to push out, buy the time you feel it and take the corrective steering action, DSC has already stopped the slide.

Do the same without DSC and you at half lock with the rear end half way across the other lane!!

[castellan]

I still cant stand having to put up with ABS. it has scares the hell out of me at times.
The only positive thing i could say for ABS is it's good for, incompetent drivers & drunk drivers. and i would have to say on a wet road it's really good stuff. but nothing other than that.
malazn mafia. i think you are right. if you know how to setup, your car properly in the 1st place. there is no problem, with getting into trouble in the 1st place.
With this new rubbish we will see bean heads, driving to fast for their competence and end up crashing anyway.

[BA_GTR]

It is much more important in wet weather when you are need to pull off an epic swerve. Otherwise, most of the time it doesn't make a difference. That said, driving a BF Ghia with this stuffs is A LOT safer than an AUII without it. ABS probably has an effect in both wet and dry conditions. It helps drivers that do not have excellent driving skills to do things in an emergency.

On a race track it wouldn't make a difference in terms of lap times, if anything it will probably make you go slower.

[Rodp]

Originally Posted by castellan

I still cant stand having to put up with ABS. it has scares the hell out of me at times.
The only positive thing i could say for ABS is it's good for, incompetent drivers & drunk drivers. and i would have to say on a wet road it's really good stuff. but nothing other than that.
malazn mafia. i think you are right. if you know how to setup, your car properly in the 1st place. there is no problem, with getting into trouble in the 1st place.
With this new rubbish we will see bean heads, driving to fast for their competence and end up crashing anyway.

Early ABS used to scare me when you'd saunter up to the lights and coming close to the queue of cars. If you hit a pothole, it would increase your breaking distance dramatically even though you weren't heavy on the brake or doing a decent amount of speed. In a modern car, I think it's very effective.

On a track, ESP or whatever your vendor calls it would probably be best turned off, but on the road where the unexpected can occur I consider it an excellent aid and certainly not hype.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by castellan

I still cant stand having to put up with ABS. it has scares the hell out of me at times.
The only positive thing i could say for ABS is it's good for, incompetent drivers & drunk drivers. and i would have to say on a wet road it's really good stuff. but nothing other than that.
malazn mafia. i think you are right. if you know how to setup, your car properly in the 1st place. there is no problem, with getting into trouble in the 1st place.
With this new rubbish we will see bean heads, driving to fast for their competence and end up crashing anyway.

1. Not surprisingly there were massive objections to the introduction of the first horseless carriage - to the point where they were actually banned from many towns in the UK and USA. Just as well that one failed or we'd all be riding horses still.

2. Many American citizens still decry the compulsory wearing of seat belts as an infringement of their civil liberties despite their proven life saving properties. Just as well most sensible jurisdictions ignore them.

The reality is that for most drivers these aids are of benefit. Experts (no doubt such as yourself) won't ever activate them on a public road so they are of no inconvenience beside a couple of extra kilos of weight.

Mind you - if you are scared by ABS then you must be activating it which would suggest that you might benefit from a lesson in threshold braking but perhaps your "properly set up vehicle" doesn't require a properly set up driver.

It scares me at times to think that I potentially have to share the road with someone that holds such views.

Russ

[gcg2503]

Originally Posted by castellan

I still cant stand having to put up with ABS. it has scares the hell out of me at times.
The only positive thing i could say for ABS is it's good for, incompetent drivers & drunk drivers. and i would have to say on a wet road it's really good stuff. but nothing other than that.
malazn mafia. i think you are right. if you know how to setup, your car properly in the 1st place. there is no problem, with getting into trouble in the 1st place.
With this new rubbish we will see bean heads, driving to fast for their competence and end up crashing anyway.

Do you actually believe this or are you deliberately trying to rebel rouse?

You must be a driving GOD.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by gcg2503

Do you actually believe this or are you deliberately trying to rebel rouse?

You must be a driving GOD.

thats funny as.

I'd go with russellw's analysis of not knowing how to brake.

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by russellw

...Mind you - if you are scared by ABS then you must be activating it which would suggest that you might benefit from a lesson in threshold braking but perhaps your "properly set up vehicle" doesn't require a properly set up driver....

Russ

That was probably the biggest lesson I learnt out of the FPV drive day. ABS is a brilliant system and especially in slippery conditions, but correctly applied threshold braking can pull the car up significantly quicker.

However the thing is, in a surprise emergency situation, your first thought isn't to threshold brake, but to jump on the brakes as hard as you can and attempt to avoid the problem (as it should be), and that's where ABS is invaluable.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

or is Stability Control designed to actually stop all emergency situations from happening altogether :

Not all as there have been plenty of accident over the year that have been caused by ABS and stability control systems.

I'm talking about complete brake failures caused by some K-H ABS systems, accidents caused by poor braking on gravel/dirt surfaces and accidents caused by stability control systems that have overheated brakes.

[GTP owner]

Threshold braking is fine on a straight with a smooth surface. The modern abs will brake you faster as soon as you introduce a corner - the ebd will proportion braking forces to all 4 wheels to achieve max braking at each individual wheel. Threshold braking cannot do that.

The old abs is a crude and simple thing that could be easily outdone. I hate it in my old Landrover series 2. Yes you can outdo this. But the modern stuff? No way. You have an amazing ability if you think you can beat individual tailoring of braking forces.

As for being quicker on a track - when the Territory was being tested they sent the motoring writers over to NZ where they were being calibrated on ice. ebd, tc on and they were 2 seconds a lap quicker than any of them could achieve with it off. And no, some were very good drivers - I think dean Evans was one (won numerous championships in different divisions).

I used to be a big skeptic, thinking i could do better. But having owner more than a few over the years, I would not be without it. In fact the bf xr6t is way better, faster, etc in the wet than the ba gtp due to the newer electical systems.

The only caveat i have is that on gravel it is way worse, but given i drive on ice more than i do gravel, and on ice it is fantastic, i say it is a good thing

[castellan]

Originally Posted by russellw

1. Not surprisingly there were massive objections to the introduction of the first horseless carriage - to the point where they were actually banned from many towns in the UK and USA. Just as well that one failed or we'd all be riding horses still.

2. Many American citizens still decry the compulsory wearing of seat belts as an infringement of their civil liberties despite their proven life saving properties. Just as well most sensible jurisdictions ignore them.

The reality is that for most drivers these aids are of benefit. (true.) Experts (no doubt such as yourself) won't ever activate them on a public road so they are of no inconvenience beside a couple of extra kilos of weight. (you are of track there. it's mainly at 30 KM/H or so on a bumpy road that it can get on my goat. noting to do with near accident so much.)

Mind you - if you are scared by ABS then you must be activating it which would suggest that you might benefit from a lesson in threshold braking but perhaps your "properly set up vehicle" doesn't require a properly set up driver.
(I do about 50000km a year and drive on dirt roads as well, then i wish i could turn the ABS off. dam roos!)
It scares me at times to think that I potentially have to share the road with someone that holds such views. (some one's view can be wrong or can be mislead about some thing.)

Russ

Thanks russ. in a forum if some one asks enough questions they may learn something. jumping to conclusions doesn't help.
me don't know how to do the quote thing right way.

[davocol]

IT is without a doubt the best enhancement in the modern car since airbags, seatbelts and ABS. I first had it in my previous car an 07 focus, I thought it's ability was being enhanced by the fact the car was a front wheel drive but after having it now in a rear wheel drive car there is more to it. In the wet the car is amazing, compared to my AU II Xr8 which spent more time sideways than straight on most days.

This is definitely a life saving technology, rather than concentrating on telling people what to do and helping people survive a crash someone thought outside the box again and helped people stop having a crash. A must have in any new car.

[Spitfire 6.2]

Even the most "able" drivers will benefit from DSC sooner or later. Its not there to supplement driving skill, its there for when something unexpected happens and no matter what reaction a driver has to this, you will lose control of the car. DSC will detect and correct the loss of control quicker than any driver can.

All I know is that im glad my car has it, it gives me a lot of peace of mind when me or my wife drives in the wet (or dry) with the kids in the car.

[Richmalbill]

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

Hmm.. so a car equipped with ESP would make quicker times around a track than a normal racecar, considering you could brake/turn much later than would be naturally possible in a car without ESP? Anybody with an ESP equipped car taken it to the track and can comment on the diference?

Potentially yes, a lot quicker.

Here is Patrick Head's (Engineering Director and part owner of Williams F1 race team) view on the subject:

"Stability control as it is understood - where you manage the engine and the braking system to put torque on different wheels to either overcome driver errors or optimise the car's performance - is the strongest driver-aid you could possibly imagine." - Basically they don't want it because it would be too effective.

When you think about it ESP gives you a control which no driver no matter how good they are has - a controlled yaw moment at the vehicle's centre of mass (a scandanavian flick is the nearest thing).