Help me settle argument (Holden based)

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by Chilliman

Funny thing is - that "football, meat pies and Holden cars" jingle is just a rip of a Chevrolet jingle; something about baseball and apple pie :

also used the same thing in south Africa.
but does it matter, as long as they sold.
Falcons were sold as they great Australian road car, yes owned by a yank multinational.

[last fairlane]

Well the Commodore first appeared as an Opel Commodore in 1974(VB)
then in 1980 as a Vauxhall you got the VK model with the extra window
as for Ford Granadas they werent Cortinas at all but Zephyrs
it went like this Mk1-Mk3-Mk3-Mk4-(all Zephyrs) then Mk5(Called Granada)
and so on never called Cortinas
now the Cortinas Mk1-Mk2 were called Consuls then the Mk3 was called Consul Cortina and from then we had Mk1-Mk2 Cortinas then labled as the TC TD TE and TF then another name change to Sierra and then on to Mondeo
where we are at now
As for the Granada XD tie in there is nothing in common except the door handles
the Granada is so much more advanced its not funny
I had a lend of a 1978 Ghia it had 3 litre EFI V6 4 speed auto IRS Cruise ABS and a sun roof
but they might look like an XD they are 6 inches narrower and shorter about the size of a VB Commodore
Thanks John

[castellan]

Originally Posted by foxtrot3

Hi the 4 cyl vb's had a starfire 4 (cut down 202 aka missfire4) then we woke up and dropped it but put the ohc family 1 engine in commodores exported to NZ. the family 1 engine started life in Australia as part of its contribution to GM's world wide "J CAR" program (JB,JD,JE camiras) and the same engine was still recently built at fishermans bend (victoria) for export for use in daewoos and Opels. Gear boxes were Buick as was front end lots of the inside was Isuzu and the wagon design was aussie although the sedan was Opels. Cheers MD

A cut down 173. it was first called starfire then moonglow. only in VC VH in aus.
NZ got the starfire 4 in VC VH VK then a 2.0L 6 CYL called RB20 in the VL. The VN got a OHC 20.L 4 cyl. the JB camira 1982-4 had a SOHC 1.6L. the 1984-7 JD is a 1.8L & the 1987-9 JE is a 2.0L

[bernadette86]

Originally Posted by Airmon

Agreed! The only car up there I'd consider owning.

lotus carlton awesome car

[bernadette86]

yeah the vb vc vh had a front sub chassis design i remember doing an engine chane in older brothers vc wagon miss fire, to a 202 out of a vh wagon we simply un bolted front completely lifted up the body and swapping the motors like that leaving motor gearbox and steering suspension and front section of chassis on the ground and moving the cars was much easier then taking out motors. goodish idea

[04redxr8]

VB was really an Opel Rekord as has already been said. But to add to it, Holdens then MD Peter Hanenberger (who was actually an engeineer) was responsible for bringing the car to Australia. He was also responsible for bringing in RTS (radial tuned suspension). Another European first.

Dunno any more about the other models, but I guess this where it all began. Guess one Holden has been around for awhile.

Also Holden even admitted that VE was based on a 2000 model BMW 528i. A 10 year old car!

[bernadette86]

what holden should have done and brick tried to do was bring the opel monza to australia a two door vh commodore. monaro in other aspects just meant the monaro resurrection would have a been cut version back then instead of doing it now.

[ZC001]

I have never read so much misinformation and lies in 3 pages. Looks like the ford fans know as little as the Holden fans they are laughing at.

* The VB commodore was based two Opel models - the bodyshell of the Rekord with the front of the Senator, which was required to fit the Holden 6 cylinder engine in.

* This Holden hybrid was used by Opel as the basis for the Commodore C in europe. (So Opel did use something from Holden)

* Holden reworked the base Opels so extensively for Australian conditions, only 35% of them was common to both. Holden replaced the Opel recirculating ball steering with rack and pinion (from the Torana).

* There was NO 4 cylinder VB commodore. There was a 4 cylinder VC & VH. This engine was NOT an opel engine, it was 2/3 of the Holden 6.

* Early Torana's started out here as Vauxhall Viva's. Rework for LC & LJ six cylinders was unique to Australia and based on the Viva shell, the front was all Australian. From LH onwards, the Torana was all-Australian, and not based on anything from overseas

* Early Gemini's were based on the Isuzu version of a GM world car - Opel also had versions of this.

* Camira was a version of the GM world J-car platform. I don't think anyone has ever claimed it to be all-Australian.

* The HQ was all Australian. It was NOT based on any Opel.

The Commodore may not be All Australian. Not many 'Australian' cars are, it's was happening 50 years ago when Ford Australia chose the disposable compact new Falcon from the US as their new 'Australian' car and it's been happening ever since.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by ZC001

I have never read so much misinformation and lies in 3 pages. Looks like the ford fans know as little as the Holden fans they are laughing at.

* The VB commodore was based two Opel models - the bodyshell of the Rekord with the front of the Senator, which was required to fit the Holden 6 cylinder engine in.

* This Holden hybrid was used by Opel as the basis for the Commodore C in europe. (So Opel did use something from Holden)

* Holden reworked the base Opels so extensively for Australian conditions, only 35% of them was common to both. Holden replaced the Opel recirculating ball steering with rack and pinion (from the Torana).

* There was NO 4 cylinder VB commodore. There was a 4 cylinder VC & VH. This engine was NOT an opel engine, it was 2/3 of the Holden 6.

* Early Torana's started out here as Vauxhall Viva's. Rework for LC & LJ six cylinders was unique to Australia and based on the Viva shell, the front was all Australian. From LH onwards, the Torana was all-Australian, and not based on anything from overseas

* Early Gemini's were based on the Isuzu version of a GM world car - Opel also had versions of this.

* Camira was a version of the GM world J-car platform. I don't think anyone has ever claimed it to be all-Australian.

* The HQ was all Australian. It was NOT based on any Opel.

The Commodore may not be All Australian. Not many 'Australian' cars are, it's was happening 50 years ago when Ford Australia chose the disposable compact new Falcon from the US as their new 'Australian' car and it's been happening ever since.

Some interesting facts in there. I agree that no 'australian' car was or is totally australian. If for no other reason than parts are shared throughout the industry globally...even 5 years ago.

BUT, if you are talking platform wise than certainly up to VE commodore is a hell of alot more 'foreign' in base design than comparable vintage falcons. Early falcons were of course just american falcons with relatively minor changes. The changes became more significant and then of course the US dropped the falcon so any further work was truly australian led (if not US based right up to XC-XD period).

The fact holden kept so much of the base design of the opel/vauxhal designs is probably what makes it look so blatant. By chopping and changing GM europe stuff with aussie alterations (steering, engines, some styling) you came up with a 'commodore' I think where things so sour is that Holden (for most models) HAS played on its australian roots and made claims that 'aussie design' was at play. Well yes it was but not anywhere near as much as either they implied or more commonly, the holden faithful believe.

Its one thing saying ford fans don't know (or dont' care) about holden history but its pretty sad that so many supposed GM Holden loyalist are so misiniformed.

[calais]

Originally Posted by ZC001

I have never read so much misinformation and lies in 3 pages. Looks like the ford fans know as little as the Holden fans they are laughing at.

* The VB commodore was based two Opel models - the bodyshell of the Rekord with the front of the Senator, which was required to fit the Holden 6 cylinder engine in.

* This Holden hybrid was used by Opel as the basis for the Commodore C in europe. (So Opel did use something from Holden)

* Holden reworked the base Opels so extensively for Australian conditions, only 35% of them was common to both. Holden replaced the Opel recirculating ball steering with rack and pinion (from the Torana).

* There was NO 4 cylinder VB commodore. There was a 4 cylinder VC & VH. This engine was NOT an opel engine, it was 2/3 of the Holden 6.

* Early Torana's started out here as Vauxhall Viva's. Rework for LC & LJ six cylinders was unique to Australia and based on the Viva shell, the front was all Australian. From LH onwards, the Torana was all-Australian, and not based on anything from overseas

* Early Gemini's were based on the Isuzu version of a GM world car - Opel also had versions of this.

* Camira was a version of the GM world J-car platform. I don't think anyone has ever claimed it to be all-Australian.

* The HQ was all Australian. It was NOT based on any Opel.

The Commodore may not be All Australian. Not many 'Australian' cars are, it's was happening 50 years ago when Ford Australia chose the disposable compact new Falcon from the US as their new 'Australian' car and it's been happening ever since.

About time.

Some more information that may assist here.

The first commodore was indeed an amalgam of two Opel models, the Rekord and the Senator. However this was only to allow local content, mainly the ability to fit the local sixes and eights, but also to allow the use Radial Tuned Suspension on a more sophisticated front end design, and with rack and pinion steering.

Peter Hanenberger also, at the time led the majority of the re-engineering to allow the Commodore the withstand local conditions and engineer RTS into it.

At this time, with the fuel crisis bearing down, the four cylinder Commodore was created and released upon the buying public in 1980 with the launch of the VC, it carried through with the VH until 1984 when the VK was launched. This 1.9L engine was indeed originally a holden 2.85L red six, with two cylinders missing. It was also only known as the Starfire Four. It packed 54kw at launch. This engine was also then licensed for use in locally assembled Toyota Coronas. (Doggedly hated by all regardless of application).

And thanks again to ZC001 for sorting this mess out!

[Saraco]

Originally Posted by 351@GT

short 202 was the starfire

Short 173 actually

[302 XC]

u would think GM as a global company would share parts,body shells,mechanicals,designs,ect ect threw out its world wide companies
ALL car companies do it

[Stoney!]

For what reason was my message deleted out of this thread without notification???


Stoney!

[302 XC]

australias own car !!!
extract from "the holden collection"

"In the autumn of 1946,a group of engineers and production men and their families (some seventy five people) left detroit on a specially chartered Canadian-Pacific train to Vancouver
With them were three prototype cars built in America,all the required engineering data,several tons of drawings and prints and a good deal of spirit of Detroit
A chartered steamship took them from Vancouver to Australia in december 1946,
these were the events leading to the commencement of production of holdens in 1948
Australias Own Car
AAAHHH and we have been poisened since

[Falcman0o7]

A mates channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/CommodoresROVERATED

[Falcman0o7]

The commodores history is sooooooo hidden. Anyone who thinks it's aussie needs to do their research and stop mouthing off like it's a god. The falcon was the true aussie car from 1972 to now.
I hate how 95% of commodore owners are so ignorant.

[Falcman0o7]

I love this thread! Finally some other that know all this! LOL! That 1970 commodore on here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Commodore look like a monaro???

What do you think?

[302 XC]

wasnt "lionel ritchie" one of the commodores ?????

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by nerida67

OH !!!
the ol camira
we all hate them now
werent they "car of the year"and a best seller ????

My first car was a JE Camira and it was ************** awesome. I don't know anything about the earlier ones but mine was great.

[302 XC]

its kinda funny ,everyone hates the camira, but everyone has a story to tell
u know a top seller that everyone bought,but everyone hates
no, i dont own one ,never have ,never will,but was young enuf to remember when they were released

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by ken2903

My first car was a JE Camira and it was ************** awesome. I don't know anything about the earlier ones but mine was great.

:
My old man owned a JD wagon and it never gave any problems (except for snapping a timing belt at 50000km!). It didnt even rust! Not even any oil leaks after 200000km!
Styling wise the car was a bit dull, but it was the 1980s!

Sadly i'll also admit my first car was JB! It was gutless with that little 1.6 in such a large car. But it did hold 120km/h on the highway no dramas (if you werent in a hurry to accelerate).
It too didnt rust (cept for a hole at the bottom corner of rear window).
But hey it was transport and it could easy carry 8 people ...

I do recall a car magazine running a feature called "Project Camira!" in order to give it better handling and more power....

It was listed in one of those "lemon" car books....

[302 XC]

yeah the lemon cars books
they also listed the nissan patrol GU 2.8
BUT does anybody listen ?????????

[Wally]

Originally Posted by loftie

Hey guys...

I've got a good mate of mine who is a Holden Nut ( : ) and we arguing about the origins of the Holden Commodore...

As as been clearly demonstrated, you could just as easily googled an answer. Topiics like this always result in various members becoming indignant with phantoms; imaginary enemies..... no one is listening. I think your "good mate" is probably quite satisfied with his choice of poison.

[cosmo20btt]

Originally Posted by ZC001

I have never read so much misinformation and lies in 3 pages. Looks like the ford fans know as little as the Holden fans they are laughing at.

* The VB commodore was based two Opel models - the bodyshell of the Rekord with the front of the Senator, which was required to fit the Holden 6 cylinder engine in.

* This Holden hybrid was used by Opel as the basis for the Commodore C in europe. (So Opel did use something from Holden)

* Holden reworked the base Opels so extensively for Australian conditions, only 35% of them was common to both. Holden replaced the Opel recirculating ball steering with rack and pinion (from the Torana).

* There was NO 4 cylinder VB commodore. There was a 4 cylinder VC & VH. This engine was NOT an opel engine, it was 2/3 of the Holden 6.

* Early Torana's started out here as Vauxhall Viva's. Rework for LC & LJ six cylinders was unique to Australia and based on the Viva shell, the front was all Australian. From LH onwards, the Torana was all-Australian, and not based on anything from overseas

* Early Gemini's were based on the Isuzu version of a GM world car - Opel also had versions of this.

* Camira was a version of the GM world J-car platform. I don't think anyone has ever claimed it to be all-Australian.

* The HQ was all Australian. It was NOT based on any Opel.

The Commodore may not be All Australian. Not many 'Australian' cars are, it's was happening 50 years ago when Ford Australia chose the disposable compact new Falcon from the US as their new 'Australian' car and it's been happening ever since.

It is interesting to note that all the conrods had Toyota motor company written on them.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by cosmo20btt

It is interesting to note that all the conrods had Toyota motor company written on them.

That's because the engine was used in Coronas and Toyota
suggested the upgraded con rods to improve durability.

Think about this,
We all zone in on similarities between Commodore and Falcon to show how they compete but
I think it's the differences between the two that makes them successesful with their buyer groups.
There is no getting away from the fact that the two drive and feel quite different - that's no accident...

[Jeddak]

Just a small point to add..the LH/LX Torana had a four cylinder version as well
it was an ohc Opel motor of 1.9 liters,making the Torana just about the only car in the world with such a wide range of engine sizes and types.

The four cylinder version was identified by the grille divided into four or six squares with horizontal bars in each square.

there was a forgettable version called "Plus 4" ( sorry Morgan! )with "go faster stripes" and a few other bits .

also wasn't the Sunbird( a part of the UC range) a four cylinder?

[FG XR]

is it just me or does that lotus carlton (1991) look0 like an ebgt lol

[calais]

The Torana did share the Starfire Four in the late LX series and into UC the models, where the Sunbird was then the designated four cylinder model. It was at this stage where the Commodore took over, selling concurrently with the Kingswood and the Sunbird/Torana died slowly as a model line.

The LH and LX Torana was also the only mass produced vehicle in the world at the time which offered 4,6 or 8 cylinder power. I cant think of any others that have since then (BMW 3 series and C Class Mercedes excepted)

(I wont be saying much more in this thread, speaking of the Starfire Four makes me feel ill)

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

I do recall a car magazine running a feature called "Project Camira!" in order to give it better handling and more power....

There was a sporty SLi2000 with the normal engine/gearbox but actually had its own, unique colour, stiffer springs and a bit of a wing lol. They were just the springs out of the regular wagon but Holden deserve a little credit for that, at least it wasn't just a 'paint and sticker' special.




Mine was just a regular SL/X minus a rear muffler (only photo i have left lol)

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by nerida67

its kinda funny ,everyone hates the camira, but everyone has a story to tell
u know a top seller that everyone bought,but everyone hates
no, i dont own one ,never have ,never will,but was young enuf to remember when they were released

I always thought the later 1.8 injected (JE) Camiras were much better but the
RB was altogether a different sort of vehicle, don't know much about them