Whatever happened to Ethanol?

[Crazy Dazz]

As relatively clean burning renewable fuel, it was supposed to be the way of the future. Especially for a country like Australia with our huge fuel-security issues.

Yet it seems to have been forgotten about?

Has everyone just assume that coal-powered battery vehicles will completely take over?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

As relatively clean burning renewable fuel, it was supposed to be the way of the future. Especially for a country like Australia with our huge fuel-security issues.

Yet it seems to have been forgotten about?

Has everyone just assume that coal-powered battery vehicles will completely take over?

Same as LPG, same as renewable diesels, and HVO.

We'd rather pay $2/L+ for fuel rather than look for viable alternatives because 'too hard basket'.

Brazilian market has a huge E85 market, and all their vehicles are flexfuel capable.

Brazil's 40-year-old ethanol fuel program is based on the most efficient agricultural technology for sugarcane cultivation in the world, uses modern equipment and cheap sugar cane as feedstock, the residual cane-waste (bagasse) is used to produce heat and power, which results in a very competitive price and also in a high energy balance (output energy/input energy), which varies from 8.3 for average conditions to 10.2 for best practice production. In 2010, the U.S. EPA designated Brazilian sugarcane ethanol as an advanced biofuel due to its 61% reduction of total life cycle greenhouse gas emissions, including direct indirect land use change emissions.

There's no appetite in this country for fixing problems, only whinging.

Pretty sure we are capable of growing sugar cane in Australia and other grains capable of producing ethanol based fuels.

Its amazing how third world corrupt and crime ridden shitholes like Brazil can do this sort of stuff, and we're incapable of anything that involves getting up off the couch because the AFL is on.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Same as LPG, same as renewable diesels, and HVO.

We'd rather pay $2/L+ for fuel rather than look for viable alternatives because 'too hard basket'.

Brazilian market has a huge E85 market, and all their vehicles are flexfuel capable.



There's no appetite in this country for fixing problems, only whinging.

Pretty sure we are capable of growing sugar cane in Australia and other grains capable of producing ethanol based fuels.

Its amazing how third world corrupt and crime ridden shitholes like Brazil can do this sort of stuff, and we're incapable of anything that involves getting up off the couch because the AFL is on.

Sugar cane industry up north is on the decline, Mossman QLD refinery closed down and local growers told to grow other products, such a backward country we are becoming.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Itsme

Sugar cane industry up north is on the decline, Mossman QLD refinery closed down and local growers told to grow other products, such a backward country we are becoming.

Its alright we'll all sell $8 coffees and swap houses amongst ourselves

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Brazilian market has a huge E85 market, and all their vehicles are flexfuel capable.

Because they're made there. Do you want the only vehicles on offer here to be made in Brazil?

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Same as LPG, same as renewable diesels, and HVO.

LPG is a pet peev of mine, but I understand that you really need a completely different setup (eg ecoLPi) plus the infrastructure in servos, plus people are afraid of different bowser handles.
Biodiesel and HVO are too dependent on food oils.

But cars capable of running on e85, instead of 98, should just be a matter of tune (that modern ECUs can handle in their sleep) and a few different components.
IIRC weren't the latter Holden V6s designed to run on e85?

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Pretty sure we are capable of growing sugar cane in Australia and other grains capable of producing ethanol based fuels.

They shut down the Sugar cane industry in the Pilbara, cos there ws no market for the sugar.
Northern Australia has heaps of potential, cos all your need is water and sun

Plus ethanol can be brewed from just about anything, including wheat byproducts, vegetables, beets, etc.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

But cars capable of running on e85, instead of 98, should just be a matter of tune (that modern ECUs can handle in their sleep) and a few different components.
IIRC weren't the latter Holden V6s designed to run on e85?

Pretty much, its fuel system components and usually stainless steel valves. Its not a big deal to make a car run on E85, there's a lot of people here on AFF with cars running on E85.

Holden Port Melbourne factory used to build the E85 engines for the Brazilian market.

[None-ya]

[QUOTE=Franco Cozzo;6921293]Same as LPG, same as renewable diesels, and HVO.

We'd rather pay $2/L+ for fuel rather than look for viable alternatives because 'too hard basket'.

Brazilian market has a huge E85 market, and all their vehicles are flexfuel capable.



There's no appetite in this country for fixing problems, only whinging.

Pretty sure we are capable of growing sugar cane in Australia and other grains capable of producing ethanol based fuels.

Hence my original comment. Bundaberg is 'abit' north of me and I remember 10+ years ago heaps of talk about them starting a ethanol distillery for biofuels. . . . Only thing new to come out since is different blends of rum and etc

[whynot]

[QUOTE=None-ya;6921427]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Pretty sure we are capable of growing sugar cane in Australia and other grains capable of producing ethanol based fuels.

Sugar cane faming is on the nose with The Greens and the ALP due to the runoff of nitrogen-based fertilisers and pesticide run-off from local farming lands affecting the Great Barrier Reef. (Also on the nose is cattle grazing, bananas, and grain.)

https://www.reefplan.qld.gov.au/land-use/cane

The sugar cane industry itself faces very stiff international competition from high-fructose corn syrup as a substitute in food manufacturing. And, sugar, even though it is a natural product, there is an advertising push to use low energy manufactured replacements like aspartame.

The Australian sugar cane industry makes only 2% of the world's sugar. As such, it is a bit player and a price taker.

Just to extend the answer a little. Because of the energy yield of solar and wind, various interest groups would much rather see the sugar cane farming land converted to solar PV and wind farms. Instead of using ethanol as an intermediatory energy storage, we install massive transmission networks and convert the fleet to EV.

(Chinese solar PV, wind turbines, batteries, and EV's - of course.)

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by whynot

Sugar cane faming is on the nose with The Greens and the ALP due to the runoff of nitrogen-based fertilisers and pesticide run-off from local farming lands affecting the Great Barrier Reef. (Also on the nose is cattle grazing, bananas, and grain.)

https://www.reefplan.qld.gov.au/land-use/cane

The sugar cane industry itself faces very stiff international competition from high-fructose corn syrup as a substitute in food manufacturing. And, sugar, even though it is a natural product, there is an advertising push to use low energy manufactured replacements like aspartame.

The Australian sugar cane industry makes only 2% of the world's sugar. As such, it is a bit player and a price taker.

Just to extend the answer a little. Because of the energy yield of solar and wind, various interest groups would much rather see the sugar cane farming land converted to solar PV and wind farms. Instead of using ethanol as an intermediatory energy storage, we install massive transmission networks and convert the fleet to EV.

(Chinese solar PV, wind turbines, batteries, and EV's - of course.)

Can't do anything with aspartame or HFCS in it, chaos on my guts

[Sprintey]

Aspartame and HFCS on the body, omg why do that to people?!

And sugar in the body - better to burn it in an engine!

[Sprintey]

It's still here - east coast, anyway, dunno about Perth though.

Manildra still make it here in Oz.

https://www.manildra.com.au/product/ethanol/

Geelong has a couple of E85 bowsers still. E10 still available as a fuel, the 94 octane one was the best imo

In the 2nd handy market there are quite a few cars that will run on E85 eg
Some VEII, all VF MY14, some Craptivas if any still exist, Jeeps with Pentastar 3.6 roughly 2011-13. Those are factory flex fuel tunes.

This group have conversion kits for all sorts of recent motors including GM Ecotec, hybrid Toyotas, and the Barra in some models:

https://eflexfuel.com/en

And there's a big tuning scene for it - of which I don't know much about.

SO

there remains a clean and green alternative using existing technology.



**Bonus:

Going old school, for the carby guys:

https://journeytoforever.org/biofuel...nol_drane.html

and for the moonshiners (be aware of gov rules in Australia)

https://journeytoforever.org/books/e...ill-manual.cgi

Good book:

https://www.whiskeyhillfarms.com/alcohol-can-be-a-gas/

Take 20% of that ethanol and cut into vegetable oils for biodiesel

https://www.scribd.com/document/2037...-the-Fuel-Tank

SO

If we are ever cut off by sea from our fuel imports, and cut off from further batteries and parts from our biggest electric car supplier - or just want green motoring, you know what to do.


**Bonus: two other things we could do: NW shelf natural gas into CNG in diesels; Gippsland coal into Fischer Tropsch coal to diesel tech - if we were ever completely stuffed for liquid fuels.

[EBSXR6]

A guy I worked with had a VE Series 2 3.6 and the first time he filled up with E85 the car ran very poorly.
He took it to the dealer, told them the symptoms only happened after filling up with E85.
They drained the fuel system refilled it with ULP,, was advised to stay away from E85.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

A guy I worked with had a VE Series 2 3.6 and the first time he filled up with E85 the car ran very poorly.
He took it to the dealer, told them the symptoms only happened after filling up with E85.
They drained the fuel system refilled it with ULP,, was advised to stay away from E85.

If you run it on ULP for a long time, then put E85 through it you'll kill both fuel pumps.

Originally Posted by b0son

Because they're made there. Do you want the only vehicles on offer here to be made in Brazil?

90% of them are made in Thailand so whats the difference

Ford US has offered flexfuel vehicles to their market for decades, and same in the US market.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

90% of them are made in Thailand so whats the difference

Nope. 90% of cars sold in Brazil are made in Brazil according to the World Bank. It stands to reason they produce something specifically for their market. Which European or Asian manufacturers are even producing cars capable of using E85? I suspect what ones are, are producing vehicles most of us wouldnt be interested in driving, let alone paying for, and certainly not in numbers that would justify importing them.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

Nope. 90% of cars sold in Brazil are made in Brazil according to the World Bank. It stands to reason they produce something specifically for their market. Which European or Asian manufacturers are even producing cars capable of using E85? I suspect what ones are, are producing vehicles most of us wouldnt be interested in driving, let alone paying for, and certainly not in numbers that would justify importing them.

Ford US has done lots of flexfuel vehicles, if you think all of Ford's ecoboost engines couldn't run on E85 with minor changes, then you have rocks in your head, a lot of the modern Ford stuff, their ECU already has the flexfuel logic in there, its just disabled in software.

As I said above, Holden Port Melbourne factory was making the engines for them as well, its not like E85 is some mythical beast thats difficult to make cars run on,

VEII/VF Commodores have a flexfuel sensor that tells the ECU the composition of the fuel and then it makes adjustments with AFR and timing, and they can run on everything from E0-E85:

https://www.efisolutions.com.au/vdo-...lex-e85-sensor

Thats the OEM part there, its made by VDO-Continental.

Oh and the Ford Ranger comes in an E85 variant too - do Australians buy any Ford Rangers?

Just on Ford alone they had the following FFVs:

Focus
Fiesta
Mondeo
Ranger
F150
Superduty
Transit

They also do these:

[ESPJG32]

The ethanol ate all the fuel systems.....better off without it.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

A guy I worked with had a VE Series 2 3.6 and the first time he filled up with E85 the car ran very poorly.
He took it to the dealer, told them the symptoms only happened after filling up with E85.
They drained the fuel system refilled it with ULP,, was advised to stay away from E85.

Yeah, I once worked with a guy that stupid.

[None-ya]

Whatever happened to Ethanol? The alco's drank it all.

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Yeah, I once worked with a guy that stupid.

Do you mean he was stupid for filling up with E85 or taking the dealers advice?

[None-ya]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

A guy I worked with had a VE Series 2 3.6 and the first time he filled up with E85 the car ran very poorly.
He took it to the dealer, told them the symptoms only happened after filling up with E85.
They drained the fuel system refilled it with ULP,, was advised to stay away from E85.

Sometimes depends on the 'mix' of the E85. Put it simply was the 15% 91octane or 98octane

[EBSXR6]

Originally Posted by None-ya

Sometimes depends on the 'mix' of the E85. Put it simply was the 15% 91octane or 98octane

None-ya Thanks for that, lucky dip buying E85.

[None-ya]

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

None-ya Thanks for that, lucky dip buying E85.

Yeah I would never trust it unless I made it myself. I've even heard of a few cases of 15% diesel

[89.SVO]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

As relatively clean burning renewable fuel, it was supposed to be the way of the future. Especially for a country like Australia with our huge fuel-security issues.

Yet it seems to have been forgotten about?

Has everyone just assume that coal-powered battery vehicles will completely take over?

Blame the Lieberal government.
Rudd and Gillard had a renewal fuels thing going, remember when Ford and Holden made flex fuel capable cars?
Then Scumo and his cronies ripped all funding from renewable fuels and E85 bowsers started closing down everywhere.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by 89.SVO

Blame the Lieberal government.
Rudd and Gillard had a renewal fuels thing going, remember when Ford and Holden made flex fuel capable cars?
Then Scumo and his cronies ripped all funding from renewable fuels and E85 bowsers started closing down everywhere.

Holden made flex-fuel cars from MY10 to MY14, but I don't remember seeing any Aussie Fords with flex-fuel systems.

The main problem with E85 (from my point of view working in the auto industry) was that while it was a bit cheaper (per litre) it has less energy, therefore the L/100km is much worse. The car cost more to run, so why bother.

Te other problem with E85 is the fuel's evaporation & corrosion issues. It's a bit like methanol in that regard, but not as bad.

Dr Terry

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

Holden made flex-fuel cars from MY10 to MY14, but I don't remember seeing any Aussie Fords with flex-fuel systems.

The main problem with E85 (from my point of view working in the auto industry) was that while it was a bit cheaper (per litre) it has less energy, therefore the L/100km is much worse. The car cost more to run, so why bother.

Te other problem with E85 is the fuel's evaporation & corrosion issues. It's a bit like methanol in that regard, but not as bad.

Dr Terry

Similar issue with the wider available E10, slightly less energy per litre means that
it should cost about 8 cents a litre less than 91 ULP but has been pegged at 2 cents per litre.
Unless you’re green conscious, thers no need to even entertain buying the stuff unless
to clean your fuel system every now and then.

[jpd80]

I was a real believer in LPG until it got much harder with extra costs meeting Euro 4
It was only a matter of time before it all got too hard and people gave up.

I see the same thing happening with E85, there just no point/incentive for the bulk of car owners.
People often say, why don’t the government do this or that, well we’ve just seen their plan going
forward with future Euro 6 emission levels, I think E85 adds too much complication to OEMs
who just want to supply the bare minimum emission requirements / obligations to our country

[Ford17]

Checking how much sugar cane needs to be grown to produce ethanol?

Is there enough land, water and growing time to produce it in sufficient amounts?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Ford17

Checking how much sugar cane needs to be grown to produce ethanol?

Is there enough land, water and growing time to produce it in sufficient amounts?

While ethanol can be produced from other sources, most of the QLD production comes from
sugarcane waste and molasses, roughly one tonne of waste produces 70-80 litres of ethanol

For the longest time, cane farmer cooperations and mills, made nearly all their money from sugar sales
but now that’s changing so fingers crossed they start exploring ethanol for fuel and plastics.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Ford17

Checking how much sugar cane needs to be grown to produce ethanol?

Is there enough land, water and growing time to produce it in sufficient amounts?

Can make it from various grains too, I think the united E85 comes from a grain rather than sugar cane.

Pretty sure their version is 107 octane as well,

This old MCM video has a bit about it, as well as at the lab.





There was a local kid (yes a child) out my way who was working with a local saw mill to make a variant of biodiesel out of their waste saw dust.

There's a new waste to energy plant going in at Sunbury which the locals are having a sook about, (extra 500 trucks a day into the area, and a big smoke stack)

As well as a biofuel generator in Wollert at the Aurora waste treatment facility which captures all the methane from the sewage and burns it in generators.

There's ways and means, but there's no drive.