Ford and Getrag moving away from Dry clutch Powershift to wet clutch versions and 6F

[jpd80]

This is the latest news from Getrag

Speaking at the Frankfurt show in September, Kotecha predicted that DCT sales would advance faster than those of manual transmissions, especially with Chinese consumers. Getrag begins local production of DCTs in China next year and expects to be producing 1.4 million units by 2020. “This isn’t a fantasy figure,” said Kotecha. “It’s based on actual orders.”

The unit to be produced in China beginning in 2016 is a new entry-level wet clutch DCT, the six-speed 6DCT150. Optimized for cost, it will first see production in Asia but is also expected to find a market among Western automakers. Its relatively low torque rating makes it unsuitable for most European turbo diesel engines. However, it is easy to imagine a good future for it in North America, where the first-generation dry clutch DCTs from Getrag-Ford (and also Fiat, on the Dodge Dart) have had a mixed reception from drivers accustomed to super-smooth CVTs and planetary automatics.

At present, Getrag supplies its dry clutch 6DCT250 to both Renault and Ford, and Volvo also employs it on the V30 and some of its current mid-sized models. It is expected that Getrag will replace this unit with a wet clutch version offering greater torque capacity and, possibly, seven rather than six speeds. This will complete Getrag’s move away from dry clutch DCTs, leaving only Fiat, with its high-torque D635, and Volkswagen, with its seven-speed DQ200, as providers of dry clutch transmissions.

Volvo, for its part, will soon be moving away from DCTs in their present form. The Swedish company’s innovative new modular two-liter gasoline and diesel engines will be paired with Getrag’s new six-speed manual transmission or one of two planetary automatics from Aisin – an eight speed and a six speed. “These transmissions are so efficient that there’s little point in going for a DCT,” said Volvo engineering director Derek Crabb. Nevertheless, added Crabb as an aside, it would be a different matter when it came to the planned three-cylinder derivatives of the new engine.

If Volvo continues to remain loyal to Getrag, the wet clutch replacement for the 6DCT250 could well fit the bill – as could the new entry-level 6DCT150 for the lower-torque gasoline versions.

http://drivelinenews...panding-market/

The new wet clutch replacement being mentioned is the 7DCT300 seven-speed.

In November, Ford USA had 17,000 dry clutch units on back order, some owners are waiting
up to a month or two for replacements under warranty. Currently Getrag and Ford engineers are
working on how to deal with the dry clutch thermal issues. From the efforts going on, it looks like
the low cost of the dry dual clutch compared to the wet dual clutch is why so much priority is being
put into getting this rectified and the reason why wet clutch DCT was not used in the first place.

Lots of damage has already been done to the Ford's (and VW's) name for the sake of saving bucks on using
a dry clutch in place of the more dependable and reliable wet clutch DCT or even a simple Ford 6F auto transmission

And with Ford/Getrag developing the new 6DCT150 wet dual clutch lower-torque derivative for the Asian markets,
Signs are there that Ford is getting out of the dry dual clutch game. Plus Ford's decision to mate the higher
horsepower 1.0 EB 125hp in Europe with the US-designed and sourced six-speed planetary automatic 6F

[Franco Cozzo]

I think the 6sp powershift in the LV TDCI Focus is a wet clutch box?

Didn't stop Yellow_Festiva's from carking it.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by jpd80

This is the latest news from Getrag




The new wet clutch replacement being mentioned is the 7DCT300 seven-speed.

In November, Ford USA had 17,000 dry clutch units on back order, some owners are waiting
up to a month or two for replacements under warranty. Currently Getrag and Ford engineers are
working on how to deal with the dry clutch thermal issues. From the efforts going on, it looks like
the low cost of the dry dual clutch compared to the wet dual clutch is why so much priority is being
put into getting this rectified and the reason why wet clutch DCT was not used in the first place.

Lots of damage has already been done to the Ford's (and VW's) name for the sake of saving bucks on using
a dry clutch in place of the more dependable and reliable wet clutch DCT or even a simple Ford 6F auto transmission
And with Ford/Getrag developing the new 6DCT150 wet dual clutch lower-torque derivative for the Asian markets,
Signs are there that Ford is getting out of the dry dual clutch game. Plus Ford's decision to mate the higher
horsepower 1.0 EB 125hp in Europe with the US-designed and sourced six-speed planetary automatic 6F

FFS how dumb are the engineers....You CANNOT have a dry clutch trans on a car it just doesn't work.......Ever heard a dry clutch on Ducati 916/996....They rattle like crazy! At least with wet clutch ther is a thin film of oil between the plates lubricating them and not just sitting ther rubbing together creating heat......And now they have massive warranty repairs because of ther own stupidity....Serves them right!

AND I cannot believe products like Volvo and VW have even used them....Outragious!

[stevz]

Give me a conventional torque converter auto instead of this rubbish any day.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by stevz

Give me a conventional torque converter auto instead of this rubbish any day.

I hate autos and I agree, this DCT stuff is good in theory just junk execution, and the repair bill so high you might as well as buy another car.

Leave it to the big boy exotics.

CVT is another piece of crap too.

[jpd80]

Sigh, maybe just a nice 6-speed manual on the Focus is all that's needed and a slusher for those that want one...

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Sigh, maybe just a nice 6-speed manual on the Focus is all that's needed and a slusher for those that want one...

......and that's another "dry clutch rubbing" one also.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by EF_6

FFS how dumb are the engineers....You CANNOT have a dry clutch trans on a car it just doesn't work.......Ever heard a dry clutch on Ducati 916/996....They rattle like crazy! At least with wet clutch ther is a thin film of oil between the plates lubricating them and not just sitting ther rubbing together creating heat......And now they have massive warranty repairs because of ther own stupidity....Serves them right!

AND I cannot believe products like Volvo and VW have even used them....Outragious!

Visions of Ford USA powertain engineers on their knees pleading not to use Dry Clutch...
Hopefully, next versions get lightweight wet clutch units for Asia and Rest of world markets
and North America gets its Auto transmissions.

Sounds like Getrag is setting up shop manufacturing wet clutch units in China, 1.6 million units a year....

It looks like Getrag and Ford knew that the dry clutch has a propensity to judder, something induced by heat.

[ryeman]

Huh?
What's this ...."clutches sitting there rubbing together" business?.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ryeman

Huh?
What's this ...."clutches sitting there rubbing together" business?.

I am assuming either in neutral the clutches are dis-engaged at idle and also between gear changes the clutch plates dis- engage to take torque load of the gears and allow them to shift......It is in these two functions that the clutch plates lightly rub together as two completely dry surfaces.....This wears the plates out.....Same as sitting at the lights in a manual with clutch to the floor....It creates heat and friction.

A wet clutch design ALWAYS has a thin film of lubricating oil between each plate so the rubbing surfaces do not create so much heat or wear the plates out so quickly.

And wers all the plate material going to go.....At least a wet trans the oil brings the contaminants to the sump then filters the pick up oil aswell.

[ryeman]

It's my understanding there are 2 (parallel) lay shafts and two separate clutch systems which don't come into contact with each other but preselect with no load.......AFAIK.

I think we're in the wrong section at the tech level.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Sounds like Getrag is setting up shop manufacturing wet clutch units in China, 1.6 million units a year....

Hope they do better than the MT82

[kevino]

Interesting.

My wifes 2012 Fiesta has intermittent judder from start off(quite bad) despite 3 computer flashes.

But...........it doesnt do it at night in the cooler temperature.

How do you think Ford can resolve this issue for existing owners?

If the dry clutch DCT is a dud then there is a large body of dissatisfied Focus and Fiesta owners destroying Fords reputation.
May explain why Fiesta sales are slow.

Its a real ***** as everything else about our Fiesta is impressive.

Do you reckon they could swap a 5 speed manual into the car?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kevino

Do you reckon they could swap a 5 speed manual into the car?

Need box and ECU at the least I reckon.

+ pedal box
+ slave cylinder
+ Flywheel
+ Clutch

Would be better off selling it and buying a manual car.

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by kevino

Interesting.

My wifes 2012 Fiesta has intermittent judder from start off(quite bad) despite 3 computer flashes.

But...........it doesnt do it at night in the cooler temperature.

How do you think Ford can resolve this issue for existing owners?

If the dry clutch DCT is a dud then there is a large body of dissatisfied Focus and Fiesta owners destroying Fords reputation.
May explain why Fiesta sales are slow.

Its a real ***** as everything else about our Fiesta is impressive.


Do you reckon they could swap a 5 speed manual into the car?

Sounds like a glazed clutch plate to me or oil on it....at least they are man trans symptoms.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Hope they do better than the MT82

Transit box in Mustang...
The only issues were in early 2011 Mustangs which settled down inside the first 12 months, but no issues in Transit.

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Transit box in Mustang...
The only issues were in early 2011 Mustangs which settled down inside the first 12 months, but no issues in Transit.

Tell that to the 2013/14 owners with their grinding 5th gear issues

What actually settled down inside the first 12 months, it certainly wasn't the transmissions

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by EF_6

FFS how dumb are the engineers....You CANNOT have a dry clutch trans on a car it just doesn't work.......Ever heard a dry clutch on Ducati 916/996....They rattle like crazy! At least with wet clutch ther is a thin film of oil between the plates lubricating them and not just sitting ther rubbing together creating heat......And now they have massive warranty repairs because of ther own stupidity....Serves them right!

AND I cannot believe products like Volvo and VW have even used them....Outragious!

Right, it's time to put some of the rubbish in this thread to bed.

Some of you will already be aware that I'm a mechanical design engineer working in transmission design. I have been working on DCT designs for the last two years and have had to deal with a lot of these 'issues'.

Dry clutches- Every current production manual car uses a DRY CLUTCH. They work just fine if you don't abuse them. To state that the use of a dry clutch is a dumb move by the engineers proves nothing but ignorance of automotive transmissions in general.

A dry clutch DCT is used in preference to a wet clutch for one reason- they are more efficient. An open wet clutch ALWAYS has some level of drag torque, this is inescapable. An open dry clutch has virtually zero drag torque.

As an example, The ZF 6AT has 5 wet clutches inside, three of which are open at any one time. Purely looking at the clutch drag, the order of increasing efficiency is ZF6AT (3 dragging clutches), Wet clutch DCT (1 dragging clutch), Dry clutch DCT (no dragging clutch).

There are two reasons for the issues with dry clutch DCTs: Firstly, people are told it's an automatic transmission and they drive it like a torque converter auto- holding the car on a hill by the accelerator instead of a brake, lots of start stop/creeping where the clutch has to slip and other generally damaging behaviour that people wouldn't typically perform in a manual car.

Secondly, the packaging constraints are horrendous and trying to fit a DCT width ways in an engine bay causes all sorts of problems. Effectively, what you have to do is fit two clutches and their actuators in the space that one clutch would usually fit. Now because the friction plates are basically as thin as they can be, it's the 'flywheel' part that has to pay the price and get thinner. This reduction in size sees an enormous reduction in mass and a corresponding reduction in the THERMAL CAPACITY of the 'flywheel' part. It's this reduction in thermal capacity that really compromises what can be done in a dry clutch DCT.

To compensate for the lower thermal tolerance of the smaller 'flywheel' part, other limits are made- e.g. 1st gear has to be very short so the clutch can be completely locked at a low speed to minimise the amount of slip required. Also, because there's no way of actually measuring the temperature of the clutch/flywheel the TCU uses mathematical modelling to determine when it's too hot- this would always be conservative.

If people were properly educated on how to drive a dry clutch DCT, then none of these problems would exist. Instead, everyone is told 'it's an auto' and continue their poor driving habits that a torque converter auto will tolerate.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by madmelon

There are two reasons for the issues with dry clutch DCTs: Firstly, people are told it's an automatic transmission and they drive it like a torque converter auto- holding the car on a hill by the accelerator instead of a brake, lots of start stop/creeping where the clutch has to slip and other generally damaging behaviour that people wouldn't typically perform in a manual car.

If people were properly educated on how to drive a dry clutch DCT, then none of these problems would exist. Instead, everyone is told 'it's an auto' and continue their poor driving habits that a torque converter auto will tolerate.

Awesome, here is an automatic car, you can't drive like an automatic car.

I've got a fantastic idea on how to stop all these problems with this automatic not so automatic gearbox:

Gear lever and a clutch pedal.

Which doesn't usually have problems under 100,000km and its taught to a first year apprentice mechanic on how to pull it apart and fix and can be taken to any shop across the country for a clutch when it needs to be replaced.

Someone driving a Fiesta/Focus/Falcon/Insert any common car here is not going to care that their gearbox can change gear in under 10 milliseconds, but they're going to care when their car wont change gear anymore and its jerking at slow speeds.

Then torque converter auto for "automatic" cars.

Leave DCT for those exotic cars until it can put up with "abuse" of people driving it like an automatic car.

Maybe instead of trying to fit 500 gears inside the thing we should stick with the 6 and work on getting it to a stage where it can be driven easily and its actually reliable.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Awesome, here is an automatic car, you can't drive like an automatic car.

I've got a fantastic idea on how to stop all these problems with this automatic not so automatic gearbox:

Gear lever and a clutch pedal.

Which doesn't usually have problems under 100,000km and its taught to a first year apprentice mechanic on how to pull it apart and fix and can be taken to any shop across the country for a clutch when it needs to be replaced.

Someone driving a Fiesta/Focus/Falcon/Insert any common car here is not going to care that their gearbox can change gear in under 10 milliseconds, but they're going to care when their car wont change gear anymore and its jerking at slow speeds.

Then torque converter auto for "automatic" cars.

Leave DCT for those exotic cars until it can put up with "abuse" of people driving it like an automatic car.

Maybe instead of trying to fit 500 gears inside the thing we should stick with the 6 and work on getting it to a stage where it can be driven easily and its actually reliable.

A dry clutch DCT is a far easier thing to disassemble than an AT and a wet clutch DCT isn't much harder. Behind the clutch, they're just a manual transmission really. Some have hydraulic controls, some have electric. This notion that they're extremely complex is absolute rubbish.

In fact, it's easier to remove the whole DCT transmission from the car than a manual is usually- just unbolt the bellhousing and take it off, they're splined onto the pseudo flywheel.


As for seals leaking- that's not a clutch type issue, that's a seal issue. Can happen to any transmission.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by madmelon

As for seals leaking- that's not a clutch type issue, that's a seal issue. Can happen to any transmission.

It's still a transmission issue, one that Ford is having continuing issues with, one that was totally avoidable with a reliable 6F auto.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by madmelon

A dry clutch DCT is a far easier thing to disassemble than an AT and a wet clutch DCT isn't much harder. Behind the clutch, they're just a manual transmission really. Some have hydraulic controls, some have electric. This notion that they're extremely complex is absolute rubbish.

In fact, it's easier to remove the whole DCT transmission from the car than a manual is usually- just unbolt the bellhousing and take it off, they're splined onto the pseudo flywheel.


As for seals leaking- that's not a clutch type issue, that's a seal issue. Can happen to any transmission.

If its easy to do, why is everything so expensive and people are clueless when it comes to DCT and there are barely any workshops around which can pull the thing apart and diagnose/repair it?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by madmelon

If people were properly educated on how to drive a dry clutch DCT, then none of these problems would exist. Instead, everyone is told 'it's an auto' and continue their poor driving habits that a torque converter auto will tolerate.

And if the rear seal on the DPS6 didn't leak gear oil onto the clutch plates, that would be even better.
17,000 replacement clutches on back order in the USA as of late November, Ford has big issues behind the scenes.

And you are quite right, Ford served this up in the USA as an auto substitute with a population
that has mostly grown up using torque converters, not manual clutches, so the feel and operation is completely different.

The kicker is the development work for the DPS6 was done in the USA by third party but absolutely zero
issues with 1.6 Ti VCT applications, makes me wonder if allowances weren't made for 2.0 DI's greater torque.......

A lot of the judder issues have calmed down since a really good software patch came out 12 months ago,
I just wonder if the yanks are are now a little off put, perhaps the next gen will win back skeptics..

[kevino]

Originally Posted by madmelon

Right, it's time to put some of the rubbish in this thread to bed.

Some of you will already be aware that I'm a mechanical design engineer working in transmission design. I have been working on DCT designs for the last two years and have had to deal with a lot of these 'issues'.

Dry clutches- Every current production manual car uses a DRY CLUTCH. They work just fine if you don't abuse them. To state that the use of a dry clutch is a dumb move by the engineers proves nothing but ignorance of automotive transmissions in general.

A dry clutch DCT is used in preference to a wet clutch for one reason- they are more efficient. An open wet clutch ALWAYS has some level of drag torque, this is inescapable. An open dry clutch has virtually zero drag torque.

As an example, The ZF 6AT has 5 wet clutches inside, three of which are open at any one time. Purely looking at the clutch drag, the order of increasing efficiency is ZF6AT (3 dragging clutches), Wet clutch DCT (1 dragging clutch), Dry clutch DCT (no dragging clutch).

There are two reasons for the issues with dry clutch DCTs: Firstly, people are told it's an automatic transmission and they drive it like a torque converter auto- holding the car on a hill by the accelerator instead of a brake, lots of start stop/creeping where the clutch has to slip and other generally damaging behaviour that people wouldn't typically perform in a manual car.

Secondly, the packaging constraints are horrendous and trying to fit a DCT width ways in an engine bay causes all sorts of problems. Effectively, what you have to do is fit two clutches and their actuators in the space that one clutch would usually fit. Now because the friction plates are basically as thin as they can be, it's the 'flywheel' part that has to pay the price and get thinner. This reduction in size sees an enormous reduction in mass and a corresponding reduction in the THERMAL CAPACITY of the 'flywheel' part. It's this reduction in thermal capacity that really compromises what can be done in a dry clutch DCT.

To compensate for the lower thermal tolerance of the smaller 'flywheel' part, other limits are made- e.g. 1st gear has to be very short so the clutch can be completely locked at a low speed to minimise the amount of slip required. Also, because there's no way of actually measuring the temperature of the clutch/flywheel the TCU uses mathematical modelling to determine when it's too hot- this would always be conservative.

If people were properly educated on how to drive a dry clutch DCT, then none of these problems would exist. Instead, everyone is told 'it's an auto' and continue their poor driving habits that a torque converter auto will tolerate.

With our Fiesta we both have or had manual cars prior.
The juddering clutch applies at take off on low throttle say following other cars. It also loses all its senses on an uphill carpark ramp and takes a couple of seconds to get itself in the right gear. 3 software patches have made no different and also the gearbox gets more erratic when it heats up.
can it be fixed and how?

[ryeman]

So how long before it's seen in Corolla and Camry I wonder. When its bullet proof they'll use it, that's my indicator of reliability.

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by ryeman

So how long before it's seen in Corolla and Camry I wonder. When its bullet proof they'll use it, that's my indicator of reliability.

Toyota wouldn't be stupid enough to use it......Have'nt they heard of Constant Velocity Transmission's?

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by ryeman

So how long before it's seen in Corolla and Camry I wonder. When its bullet proof they'll use it, that's my indicator of reliability.

Good point.

As for torque converters, the loss of efficiency means their days have always been numbered once someone comes up with something a lot better but still cheap to build.

[Gadgetman]

Ford wet clutch has been great, not so the dry one

[mik]

Call me a dinosaur, but I prefer the old simple, proven conventional auto/gearbox/clutch arrangement, I would not go near any car with the dct ................... unless it was a rental .

[Maka]

I guess some first generation idea's are a little glitchy to start with, maybe some extra few dollars spent on the clutches friction material would've prevented these hassles now? Lets hope the glitches are resolved asap & to the satisfaction of the current owners, Ford can have pr win here if they do things correctly.

cheers, Maka