'Fly-by-wire' clutch

**Luke Plaizier** · 17-09-2011, 08:36 AM

What with the recent conversation around the death of the Manual thanks to DSG and multi-speed auto's, I've sprouted an idea.

DSG's are destined to replace manuals altogether, and the clutch in a DSG is computer controlled - but some people still report that the move-from-standstill engagement of a DSG clutch is still not seemless.

So here's the idea. We have Electronic throttles now, and steering that is Electronically assisted, and Brakes that are electronically assisted - why not just take that one extra step to satsify those (like me) with a penchant for driving a manual and do the same with a clutch?

To me, if a DSG is already driven by a computer, all the computer needs is a digital range input provided by a clutch pedal, and voila, the driver would input into how the clutch(es) engage. Do the same with digital input from a 6-shifting H-Gate and the retro simulation would be complete. Something akin to a Logitech G27 springs to mind here. Although the noise of grinding gears on missed shifts might have to be simulated.....

Clutches would all be light and easy to use if you wished, manual gears would all be snickety snick and not a source of NVH into the vehicle, and you'd eliminate DSG take-off issues if you wanted to. Values such as clutch-take up (or 'dead zone' as it's called in the Sim Racing world) would be adjustable. The weight of the pedal and other tactile feedback values could be adjusted. Driving your favourite stretch of tar or country road would still be fun. And if you drive into a city, you can still go to auto-clutch tiptronic mode, or full automatic.

How could the best of every driving mode NOT be a good thing?

Discuss.

Lukeyson

LethalLeigh · 17-09-2011, 11:24 AM

Not a chance as far a can see. The clutch is a very analogue device adding a computer to it leaves you in the same place as the DSG and other automated manual gear boxes. How will it tell the difference between a gentle take off with mother in the car against a dumped clutch lining at the Xmas tree?

Werd. · 17-09-2011, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LethalLeigh

. How will it tell the difference between a gentle take off with mother in the car against a dumped clutch lining at the Xmas tree?

very very very simple, just have a "Sport/race/normal" setting.

My poor XF · 17-09-2011, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LethalLeigh

Not a chance as far a can see. The clutch is a very analogue device adding a computer to it leaves you in the same place as the DSG and other automated manual gear boxes. How will it tell the difference between a gentle take off with mother in the car against a dumped clutch lining at the Xmas tree?

I assume it would work with all other variables ie throttle position, brake application etc. These would all be varied in the varied situations. Or as above you have street and race modes etc

Better start the patent process Luke haha

sudszy · 17-09-2011, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LethalLeigh

Not a chance as far a can see. The clutch is a very analogue device adding a computer to it leaves you in the same place as the DSG and other automated manual gear boxes. How will it tell the difference between a gentle take off with mother in the car against a dumped clutch lining at the Xmas tree?

I think the suggestion was that it would have all the normal feedback/action, just that there would be no mechancial connection between the pedal and the clutch(fly by wire) and that one could set how much resistance one would like to feel on the pedal and bunny hops etc could still be on the cards if throttle action wasnt correspondingly matched.

Its actually the pedal to clutch linkage(whether it be hydraulic, cable or rod linkage) that has often been the source of problems in cars Ive driven rather than the clutch mechanism itself.

Perhaps Ive interpreted wrong and the OP does want the whole thing to be idiot proof, certainly there are many applications where getting the clutch action is very hard to do, ie while the vehicle is bouncing around in 4wd offroading etc.

Interestingly our mode of controlling cars could do with some change. Historically clutch,brake have had to be foot operated and the steering(high number of turns lock to lock) have had to be that way because of the high effort needed to operate them.

Whereas we can have the same devices on a motorcycle hand operated and the steering direct ratio.
While there is lots of reasons to keep things as they are, having something faster than your feet to operate the brakes and faster response steering are things that could enhance safety.

Franco Cozzo · 17-09-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LethalLeigh

Not a chance as far a can see. The clutch is a very analogue device adding a computer to it leaves you in the same place as the DSG and other automated manual gear boxes. How will it tell the difference between a gentle take off with mother in the car against a dumped clutch lining at the Xmas tree?

Basically the accelerator pedal in cars today has no mechanical link to the throttle body, besides wires connected to the the ECU which carries the signal from the throttle position sensor which converts you moving the accelerator pedal into electronic signals so that the ECU knows you're pushing the accelerator and how much.

It could work the same way in an electronically controlled clutch in a DSG i guess, position sensor on the clutch pedal telling the ECU how its being used and the ECU just mimics to the clutch what the sensor is sending it. There would be some sort of delay as there is in early drive by wire cars, but that can improve as technology does I guess.

I reckon its possible, the clutch(s) is already controlled by a computer.

dylancox · 17-09-2011, 04:27 PM

What about Fly By Wire steering

. Would solve the LHD/RHD issue instantly, you could practically put the steering wheel anywhere in the car.

jason71 · 17-09-2011, 06:41 PM

Then we could have a real back seat driver!

malazn mafia · 17-09-2011, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason71

Then we could have a real back seat driver!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKCr1Hy4Q5Q

burkie_21 · 18-09-2011, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKCr1Hy4Q5Q

thats the first thing i thought of when jason said back seat driver haha

jpd80 · 18-09-2011, 10:39 AM

The whole idea of DSG is to get rid of the clutch pedal, as long as the
centrifugal clutch and software is programmed properly, then all is well.

I can see great opportunity for aftermarket tuners to adjust OEM settings,
this is where the real game (money) is.....

lockieoc · 18-09-2011, 06:49 PM

The Getrag twin clutch in the Mitsubishi Evo doesn't have a take up issue that i have noticed. Having said that after now spent some time driving it i cant see myself ever wanting a manual over one of these boxes, they are an amazing piece of kit.

happy1 · 18-09-2011, 10:11 AM

Hm.. There are already several car models with electric actuated clutch.
My Smart ForTwo has one. (but its missing the pedal)
You can also retrofit one... http://www.autoclutchindia.in/
I know some norwegian engineers that developed auto clutches early 2000, so it has been around for 10 years.
Unfortunately not as sensitive as a foot on a pedal.
I had a rental car in approx 2006, it was a Fiesta with auto clutch, it worked fine, and would override if you forgot to press the pedal at the red lights etc.

FGII-XR6 · 18-09-2011, 10:24 AM

the problem I see with the gear change method you mention is clutchless gear changes would be impossible as they rely on the feel coming back through the shifter and subtle changes in pressure on the shifter to change gears , I would think double shuffle would be out too so many of the reasons why a manual is seen as desirable ( control and feel) would be gone

happy1 · 19-09-2011, 11:21 AM

Electronic clutch is fine when the twin shaft gearbox (DSG) is able to perform ultra fast gear changes. A new gear is already selected in the box prior to the two clutches swapping the power transfer. It happens so quickly the engine can almost remain on full power. However to make it soft the ECU / PCM will do what it can to adjust the RPM to the new gear.

My smart Fortwo is designed prior to 1998, and this model only have a single clutch with a 6-speed electrically actuated 'manual'. It takes forever to change gear (several seconds). Of course it functions well for 'grandma' in the city, but not very satisfying to drive if you are in a hurry.