My theory for speed cameras; Part 1!

[XDV800]

Speed Cameras. 2 issues i have with them.
Some of you feel enraged just at the thought of the bloody things sending you a postcard in the mail, i know i do.

Theres always a discussion about these things and how they are simply a way for the states to scavenge as many dollars from us as possible. Families, low income earners, volunteers. Some people could be left on their knees if their licence is taken away from them. It really is an attack on our rights as citizens to live in a democracy, where innocent until proven guilty is supposedly an ideology upheld by the court systems.
So how did the courts and the lawmakers and legislators in whatever superpower country that 1st introduced these devices, decide that it was ok to fine and infringe penalties upon people, for basically committing no crime, no harm to any fellow human being, or property, but simply operating a motor vehicle at a speed at which it has been designed to achieve, and then happily sold to the public to use in any way they see fit.

Lets face it, being ticketed for speeding is just an ASSUMPTION that an incident may occur. How can we justify this seriously?

(I am creating a Part 2 to this to highlight my thoughts on my 2nd issue, and a new approach on camera locations and who controls them. Just didn't want to have all this in one thread)

[P6LTD351]

Not this again.

My theory for speed cameras: Don't speed and you have nothing to worry about. And bringing up times where there have been errors is not a counter argument. If you feel that you have been wrongly fined, take it further. The chances of it occurring is minimal. I'd like to see the track record of previous fines received from those that whinge about them. What relevance does talking about low income families and volunteers have? I would have thought they can't afford to speed? Speeding is no harm to any human being? I suppose drinking and driving is ok too?

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Not this again.

My theory for speed cameras: Don't speed and you have nothing to worry about

true


another option is to open your eyes when driving. the mobile ones light up like beacons and the fixed ones . . . . well, how many times can a smart person go passed the same revenue raising camera without realising it will ping you time and time again

on a purely selfish level, i don't have a problem with them. they do not get me, and they cannot give me an unroadworthy or other driving related offence. plus i choose if wish to pay that tax or not

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Not this again.

My theory for speed cameras: Don't speed and you have nothing to worry about.

I love this quote. It's usually quoted by people who don't see the bigger picture. So are you telling me that never once in your life been above the speed limit? Never? You have never looked down at your speedo & found yourself doing 90 in an 80 zone? 112 in a 100? Not once? I'm sorry but if you havent you must be a perfect driver. Possibly the only one, but I believe it's highly unlikely. I believe that everyone once in their years of driving has had a little surprise when they have looked down at the speedo and found they were above the limit. And if they say they haven't. They are lying.

The last time (& first time) I was snapped I didn't even know I was over till I saw this massive flash (it was about 7pm) followed by a loud "WTF?" looked down at my speedo to find myself doing 110 (fined for 111) in a 100km zone on the Warrego Hwy. Now before you say that it's obvious I wasn't payig attention to "driving" your wrong. I was rather focused on the three cars ahead of me that were vigorously playing a shell game of lane changing since blacksoil....

Originally Posted by eb2monty

What relevance does talking about low income families and volunteers have? I would have thought they can't afford to speed?

Now for this one. I'm not a low income earner, but I'm not middle class either. Long story short, I bought a property to make money on. & since then, my investment property has done nothing but drain me. So for the past few years I don't have alot of spare money. Barely $100 a month if I'm lucky. However, the aforementioned happy snap cost me $133 and one point. Now the one pint was ok, I had my full 12, but that 133 really hurt. So you say I can't afford to speed, your right. But look at the reason why I wasn't concertrating on the speedo...... Ain't exactly fair.....

We are bring forced to drive perfectly, When we are not perfect creatures....

[XDV800]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

I love this quote. It's usually quoted by people who don't see the bigger picture. So are you telling me that never once in your life been above the speed limit? Never? You have never looked down at your speedo & found yourself doing 90 in an 80 zone? 112 in a 100? Not once? I'm sorry but if you havent you must be a perfect driver. Possibly the only one, but I believe it's highly unlikely. I believe that everyone once in their years of driving has had a little surprise when they have looked down at the speedo and found they were above the limit. And if they say they haven't. They are lying.

The last time (& first time) I was snapped I didn't even know I was over till I saw this massive flash (it was about 7pm) followed by a loud "WTF?" looked down at my speedo to find myself doing 110 (fined for 111) in a 100km zone on the Warrego Hwy. Now before you say that it's obvious I wasn't payig attention to "driving" your wrong. I was rather focused on the three cars ahead of me that were vigorously playing a shell game of lane changing since blacksoil....



Now for this one. I'm not a low income earner, but I'm not middle class either. Long story short, I bought a property to make money on. & since then, my investment property has done nothing but drain me. So for the past few years I don't have alot of spare money. Barely $100 a month if I'm lucky. However, the aforementioned happy snap cost me $133 and one point. Now the one pint was ok, I had my full 12, but that 133 really hurt. So you say I can't afford to speed, your right. But look at the reason why I wasn't concertrating on the speedo...... Ain't exactly fair.....

We are bring forced to drive perfectly, When we are not perfect creatures....

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

I love this quote. It's usually quoted by people who don't see the bigger picture. So are you telling me that never once in your life been above the speed limit? Never? You have never looked down at your speedo & found yourself doing 90 in an 80 zone? 112 in a 100? Not once? I'm sorry but if you havent you must be a perfect driver. Possibly the only one, but I believe it's highly unlikely. I believe that everyone once in their years of driving has had a little surprise when they have looked down at the speedo and found they were above the limit. And if they say they haven't. They are lying.

The last time (& first time) I was snapped I didn't even know I was over till I saw this massive flash (it was about 7pm) followed by a loud "WTF?" looked down at my speedo to find myself doing 110 (fined for 111) in a 100km zone on the Warrego Hwy. Now before you say that it's obvious I wasn't payig attention to "driving" your wrong. I was rather focused on the three cars ahead of me that were vigorously playing a shell game of lane changing since blacksoil....



Now for this one. I'm not a low income earner, but I'm not middle class either. Long story short, I bought a property to make money on. & since then, my investment property has done nothing but drain me. So for the past few years I don't have alot of spare money. Barely $100 a month if I'm lucky. However, the aforementioned happy snap cost me $133 and one point. Now the one pint was ok, I had my full 12, but that 133 really hurt. So you say I can't afford to speed, your right. But look at the reason why I wasn't concertrating on the speedo...... Ain't exactly fair.....

We are bring forced to drive perfectly, When we are not perfect creatures....

Yes I have gone over the limit before. Luckily I have never been caught and never had a speeding fine in 17 years of driving. But if I DID get caught, I have ONLY got MYSELF to blame. That's the crux of this. Society (and I'm generalising here) always wants to blame someone else other than themselves. Are speed cameras revenue raisers? YES! But I choose not to contribute to that revenue. If I slip up and get caught: my problem.

And lastly, it's not too much to ask to stick to the speed limit. If you find that you have trouble checking the speedo, how about go a few ks slower than the limit to give you that leeway

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Yes I have gone over the limit before. Luckily I have never been caught and never had a speeding fine in 17 years of driving. But if I DID get caught, I have ONLY got MYSELF to blame. That's the crux of this. Society (and I'm generalising here) always wants to blame someone else other than themselves. Are speed cameras revenue raisers? YES! But I choose not to contribute to that revenue. If I slip up and get caught: my problem.

And lastly, it's not too much to ask to stick to the speed limit. If you find that you have trouble checking the speedo, how about go a few ks slower than the limit to give you that leeway

please, no logic on this forum

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

I love this quote. It's usually quoted by people who don't see the bigger picture. So are you telling me that never once in your life been above the speed limit? Never? You have never looked down at your speedo & found yourself doing 90 in an 80 zone? 112 in a 100? Not once? I'm sorry but if you havent you must be a perfect driver. Possibly the only one, but I believe it's highly unlikely. I believe that everyone once in their years of driving has had a little surprise when they have looked down at the speedo and found they were above the limit. And if they say they haven't. They are lying

i have sped before and no doubt i will again. i speed too much - but i see the cameras. does that mean i am aware or lucky - maybe a bit of both, but there is no way, so many people can be caught by them if they are aware of their surroundings. surroundings include speed cameras, cars, bikes, trucks, pedestrian, kids, animals, pot holes etc. if you are not aware of your surroundings, you deserve the fine. the ones i have got, i accepted. i knew the rules, but chose to ignore them or be ignorant - my fault, my penalty - end of story
but more importantly - no complaints

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

please, no logic on this forum

[Revolver]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

please, no logic on this forum
i have sped before and no doubt i will again. i speed too much - but i see the cameras. does that mean i am aware or lucky - maybe a bit of both, but there is no way, so many people can be caught by them if they are aware of their surroundings. surroundings include speed cameras, cars, bikes, trucks, pedestrian, kids, animals, pot holes etc. if you are not aware of your surroundings, you deserve the fine. the ones i have got, i accepted. i knew the rules, but chose to ignore them or be ignorant - my fault, my penalty - end of story
but more importantly - no complaints

Oh I did forget to mention that mr Polaroid was hidding behind the rather high shrub there?? I can't see what I can't see. But you can never argue that point when contesting a fine, or why I was more focused on the traffic ahead....

It's not like it's a problem that I have, Like I said it's the first time I had been snapped. I always see a speed camera, I'm always looking for them, plus whatever else could jump out at me. Actually the intersection only a few hundred meters from the camera position is a bit of a black spot for people who think they can beat the traffic both across & joining the highway. So I'm on alert on it's approach. There has only been few times I have seen one, looked down and been above. it's solved with a quick roll-off of the trottle. Im generally sitting on 98 in the hunderd (i love my digital dash), But the one time I was concentrating on three cars ahead if me playing silly buggers, was the one time I was above, the one time there was a camera, & the one time is wasn't focused on peripheral. Not that I would have seen him anyway.... Nor does anyone else who goes past. Many a time since that night I gave seen a few flashes go off as cars go by, followed by brakes lights. As I approach (after double checking my speed) sure enough, he's hidden behind the bush where you can't see him until the flash goes off.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by Blue Beast II

We are bring forced to drive perfectly, When we are not perfect creatures....

Not really. It seems it is OK to perform illegal U-turns, drive through red lights, weave dangerously, talk on your mobile, and drive on the wrong side of the road. 10km over the limit however and you have to hand your license in.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

I'd like to see the track record of previous fines received from those that whinge about them.

I complain about speed cameras.

I have never been fined for anything.

Not everyone who complains are just complaining because 1 more slip up and they lose their license.
Some people actually have their eyes open and can see the blatant revenue raising without actually getting a fine.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I complain about speed cameras.

I have never been fined for anything.

Not everyone who complains are just complaining because 1 more slip up and they lose their license.
Some people actually have their eyes open and can see the blatant revenue raising without actually getting a fine.

Ok, I have already admitted that it is revenue raising. Becomes null and void if you choose not to contribute to the revenue raising; and if you do, cop it on the chin. On the other hand, some people just like complaining!

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Not this again.

My theory for speed cameras: Don't speed and you have nothing to worry about. And bringing up times where there have been errors is not a counter argument. If you feel that you have been wrongly fined, take it further. The chances of it occurring is minimal. I'd like to see the track record of previous fines received from those that whinge about them. What relevance does talking about low income families and volunteers have? I would have thought they can't afford to speed? Speeding is no harm to any human being? I suppose drinking and driving is ok too?

I often wonder if people who say "if you think it was wrong, just fight it in court" have ever actually tried such a thing?

My own cautionary tale...
I was finishing up at the factory where I worked in Bundaberg. It was situated on a main open wide two lane road, in town, with a ver wide dirt verge either side leading from the gutter up a rise to the bitumen (it has seince been widened and bitumened all the way to the gutter).
This road, Bargara Road, is a well trafficked road, very heavy in the morning and night as people go to and from work. The police quite regularly set up speed traps near the factory and it was almost a sport for us to sit out the front having smoko and watch people getting booked. We were all quite well aware that police could be relied upon to be hiding somewhere along that road towards town, therefore even the most lead-footed of us never...and I mean never...went over the speed limit along that road...to such an extent that in 19 years of work at that factory, no one who worked there was booked along that road. Elsewhere in town, yes, but never along that road...we knew the chances of being caught there were astronomical.

I had parked my old motorbike backed into the gutter out the front of the factory, and came out to leave work...I was the last man out of the place and the only vehicle parked along maybe a couple of hundred meters either way of roadside was my bike. I could see well down the road towards town, and there were no other cars within sight, apart from some parked cars maybe 200 meters away near a shop. I hopped on and rode off towards town. The dirt meant I could only take off steadily until I reached the bitumen, then started to accelerate pretty steadily. I only got to second gear and saw a guy step out well down the road with a reflective vest and torch, and start waving at me. I didn't accelerate beyond about 40kph as I knew I would have to stop.
It was a cop, and I took off my helmet and said "Yes officer?", expecting a random breath test. He said "You were speeding back there".
Shocked, I said "Where?", and he pointed back up the road. I said I had only just pulled out of the parking area, and he said "yes I saw you". He the proceeded to show me the laser gun, which said I had been doing 72kph, 140 meters from his position.
I told him I wasn;t paying the fine, and he said that was my right.
To digress, I never saw him zero the gun, merely toss it back onto the drivers seat...I wondered how many other people had been booked for "72kph" at that spot that afternoon...
The next day I went to work and got a meter wheel and measured off the distance from my parking space to where the cop had been standing...142 meters. I briefly considered advertising my bike for sale as the fastest accelerating motorcycle in the world...standing start to 72kph in 2 meters...

I went to the police station, explained what had happened, and the policewoman behind the desk also said she wouldn't have paid it if it happened like I claimed. She was very helpful and gave me a statutory declaration form, explained what I had to do, and also gave me the address to send my claim off to. She said don't pay the fine, but to wait for a decision from on high, which could take a while.
I sent it off with a full explanation (pretty much what it says here) and included time of day, and a hand drawn map of where it had happened and all distances measured off neatly.
Three months later a letter came...the gist of which was, to be blunt, "We're right, you're wrong, pay up".

My mates at work said "Take it to court and fight it!!!". What for? To take a couple of days off work, employ a solicitor, and still be told "we're right, you're wrong, pay up...plus costs...".

The entire system is geared to discourage people from going to court and fighting a fine. Along with tax law, it's the only part of the justice system where you are presumed guilty until you can somehow prove yourself innocent.
They don't want people to fight it, by making out that the speed camera/laser gun/radar gun is absolutely, totally, 100% infallible...unlike any other scientific instrument you care to name, from a lab thermometer to a mass spectrometer to a CAT scan machine...each and every single one of them has an error margin in it, which has to be taken into account. but not speed measuring devices used by police...they are never ever ever wrong. If you told any technician to measure something accurately, he would first want to know the exact conditions the measurement would be taken under. Say to him "Don't worry about the conditions...they'll be changing from moment to moment, minute to minute, day to day...don't concern yourself about them, just give me a measurement"...you'd be laughed at and told to come back when you can guarantee controlled conditions under which to give a reasonably accurate and repeatable measurement.

My son got a speed camera fine from Rockhampton, along the main road into town near the tourist center, where the speed limit goes from 60kph to 70kph. They sit there all the time...anyone here from the Rocky region will know the spot. In the photo was a car behind my sons car, and one to the right. Which car was speeding? Police claim that they have "learned more about how radar works and know exactly which car is speeding in a photo"...but this is only because they used to give the benefit of the doubt to drivers, and if more than one car was in a picture in close proximity to each other, they would discard it. They were, basically, chucking out far too many profitable photographs so came up with the lie that thier radar...unlike every other radar emitter in the world, emits a tight vertical beam across the road and picks out one car from a bunch. Yeah...sure it does.

It's all a scam...get police back out on the roads instead of hiding in the bushes, make them pull people over and fine them when they have been proved to be speeding by being followed in a police car with a currently calibrated speedo, instead of a fallible device used in many different environments.
If you want to get real accurate, fit each car with a forward facing camera and link this to embedded GPS showing the time, date, location, and speed at time of offence. Use this for every single charge of speeding. This would give people a fighting chance to back up thier claim that they weren't speeding.

Expensive? Yes it would be...but aren't we repeatedly told "If it only saves one life it's worth it"...?

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Not this again.

My theory for speed cameras: Don't speed and you have nothing to worry about. And bringing up times where there have been errors is not a counter argument. If you feel that you have been wrongly fined, take it further. The chances of it occurring is minimal. I'd like to see the track record of previous fines received from those that whinge about them. What relevance does talking about low income families and volunteers have? I would have thought they can't afford to speed? Speeding is no harm to any human being? I suppose drinking and driving is ok too?

And if enough don't speed, keep dropping the speed limit until some do. Its not as simple as follow the law, if the law is being manipulated to make money at the cost of the public.

Thats how you get into the situation in Victoria where they are hunting you down for 1km over and making a large number of otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals. Victoria can't afford its citizens to follow the law. It counts on them breaking it and often. The state budget is built around it for crying out loud.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

And if enough don't speed, keep dropping the speed limit until some do. Its not as simple as follow the law, if the law is being manipulated to make money at the cost of the public.

Thats how you get into the situation in Victoria where they are hunting you down for 1km over and making a large number of otherwise law abiding citizens into criminals. Victoria can't afford its citizens to follow the law. It counts on them breaking it and often. The state budget is built around it for crying out loud.

In Queensland they seem to see "dropping the speed limit" as the default way of "making a road safer"...
Near Bundaberg they dropped the limit on the roads to the beaches to 80kph after a couple of accidents. One was three drunk girls at 2am hitting a power pole after missing a corner, killing one of them, and the other was a woman who pulled out in front of traffic from a side road. Disregarding the drunks, the accident where the woman pulled out into traffic was investigated by the Transport Department (on request of the local council), and said the road was fine, visibility was fine, the speed limit was appropriate, and it was totally driver error. But the council, listening to an emotive campaign run by the womans family in the local paper ("Don't let our mummy die in vain!") the council ignored the Transport Departments recommendations and lowered the limit to 80kph.

When I went to Brisbane to see the Top Gear Live show, I was amazed at the looooong stretches of Highway One past Gympie which are 80 to 90kph, divided by a meter wide center line, signs saying "No Overtaking", and what must be tens of millions of dollars of massive overhead illuminated signs which dramatically tell you "YOU are tailgating: Back Off!"...even when there's nothing for a kilometer either way...
Once again, the "accidents" in this area were completely driver error...people overtaking in the pouring rain, people pulling out onto a main highway from a side road without looking, etc. Don't try and blame the drivers...just make them drive slower to make it safer for the large number of idiots out there who can't drive to save thier life to break the law and dpo stupid things...

"The Great Road Safety Lie" rolls on...

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

And if enough don't speed, keep dropping the speed limit until some do.

Although I play the game, (only caught once doing 61 in a 50 in the last ten years or more these days), this is exactly what I am afraid of as well. I like the term hunted down for very 1 k over the limit, because that is exactly what is going on. If everybody obeyed all of the sign posted speed limits all of the time no matter how ridiculous some are set to then the Gov would have only two choices, accept less general revenue or lower speed limits more to begin the cycle all over again to regain said lost revenue. What other choice would they have?

Not only do we put up with a mish mash of ever changing speed limits over relative short distances now but half the time it is impossible with out local knowledge to know exactly what the given speed limit is anymore either. This is no accident but rather by design imho. If you pull out from a known 50kph street onto a 60kph, then you will need to continue at 50 until you come across the next 60 sign because that is how the law is written. The roads themselves do not seem to run a common theme or indicate what the speed limit is until you come up to the next sign post regardless wether there are houses around or even if the road has multiple lanes etc so you can not rely on common sense to make a decision.

This was really brought home to me when my son was learning to drive. He would ask what is the speed limit after turning onto a new road? and I would say I think we are now in a 60 and he would say think or know because I can't afford to gamble. Meanwhile cars would become irate at the L plate driver who was doing 50 in a 60 until the next 60 sign came into view. If with over 30 years driving experience I could not tell the difference then how could he, how does anyone? This could easily happen in reverse as well, in fact I think that the Gov banks on it!

Still I read other peoples response to pro anti speeding laws and pro speed camera use and I realise that we only have ourselves to blame for any Gov taking advantage of our apathy in this country.

Bud Bud

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Gov would have only two choices, accept less general revenue or lower speed limits more to begin the cycle all over again to regain said lost revenue. What other choice would they have?

Governments can choose to raise revenue in what ever way they see fit. Obviously if one method of revenue falls they will set higher taxes in other areas, sales, property, fuel...or if they go to the feds screaming poor then our income tax can go up.

But you think the only alternative is to lower speed limits .....what happens when we get down to 1km/h?

At the end of the day govco needs money to fund the services that tax payers demand...education, health, defence etc, it has to come from somewhere.

At present Im quite happy having people that cant follow basic road rules subsidising the rest of us.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by sudszy

But you think the only alternative is to lower speed limits .....what happens when we get down to 1km/h?

That's the way it's going in Victoria. I remember when they first brought in 50km/h limits. I am not opposed to that, but I knew at the time, they would do 40, then 30.. etc It happened. Weren't they proposing 20km/h in the CBD? Are they trying to make sure that cars and turtles can share the roads safely? Or just looking for ways to raise the revenue after people get used to going at slower speeds?

[Bud Bud]

Originally Posted by sudszy

At present Im quite happy having people that cant follow basic road rules subsidising the rest of us.

Great, as I said I am not a contributor either. But your response is exactly the point I am making. At what point of dumbing down the average road user by continuously lowering speed limits in line with revenue raising will you arc up??? Could it be the magical 1kph as you suggest??? When they ban cars all together because they actually move perhaps, I don't know so you tell me. They maybe basic road rules by today's standards but they are also designed to confuse and trap everyday folk (not just hoons and the anti social) just going about their daily business.

I pity anybody that has not had the experience of 150kph (in a 1.4 T diesel mind you) on the autobahn in Germany while Audi's, Merc's and the like share the same road travelling over 200kph. I have driven through the Mohave Desert on some rickety roads that would come under enormous scrutiny in Australia at over 70 mph (and a little more in some places ), and all the while in this country we are continually faced with lower speed limits even in the middle of no where and rule these limits with an iron fist through the over use of revenue raising oops I mean safety speed cameras. But hey if you think that any Gov has the right to raise revenue any way it sees fit without questioning them like some of us are here, then that is your prerogative, that is your democratic right.

Bud Bud

[Jim Goose]

Er... I think you need a better arguement if you want to win a debate about speed cameras? (and no I am not a supporter of them)

Some people could be left on their knees if their licence is taken away from them. It really is an attack on our rights as citizens to live in a democracy, where innocent until proven guilty is supposedly an ideology upheld by the court systems.

The camera takes a photo of you when you break the speed limit. A policeman pulls you over when they catch you on radar/lazer..... There is no difference there. You can argue about calibration, how the device is used etc etc... The device proves you broke the speed limit (and yes i know you can argue again about accuracy etc).

So how did the courts and the lawmakers and legislators in whatever superpower country that 1st introduced these devices, decide that it was ok to fine and infringe penalties upon people, for basically committing no crime, no harm to any fellow human being, or property, but simply operating a motor vehicle at a speed at which it has been designed to achieve, and then happily sold to the public to use in any way they see fit.

What does this have to do with speed cameras?
Speed limits were set in road laws decades before people thought of speed cameras. Speed limits were set as part of the road rules.
As part of your arguement are you saying we should have no road rules?
100kmh in a school zone? No traffic lights?

Lets face it, being ticketed for speeding is just an ASSUMPTION that an incident may occur. How can we justify this seriously?

There is no assumption of anything... you broke the law and you get punished. Speed limits were set in order to try and find a balance to help traffic flow and lower the possibility of serious injury where applicable.. ie 60kmh in a built up area where there are a lot of people walking, lots of buildings etc.... it has nothing to do with speed cameras.

Your arguement seems to be totally based on the speed limit (which we have had long before cameras came along). You should be argueing about their location, the relationship between them and so-called accident statistics, how its a blatent revenue raiser.......

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Er... I think you need a better arguement if you want to win a debate about speed cameras? (and no I am not a supporter of them)



The camera takes a photo of you when you break the speed limit. A policeman pulls you over when they catch you on radar/lazer..... There is no difference there. You can argue about calibration, how the device is used etc etc... The device proves you broke the speed limit (and yes i know you can argue again about accuracy etc).



What does this have to do with speed cameras?
Speed limits were set in road laws decades before people thought of speed cameras. Speed limits were set as part of the road rules.
As part of your arguement are you saying we should have no road rules?
100kmh in a school zone? No traffic lights?




There is no assumption of anything... you broke the law and you get punished. Speed limits were set in order to try and find a balance to help traffic flow and lower the possibility of serious injury where applicable.. ie 60kmh in a built up area where there are a lot of people walking, lots of buildings etc.... it has nothing to do with speed cameras.

Your arguement seems to be totally based on the speed limit (which we have had long before cameras came along). You should be argueing about their location, the relationship between them and so-called accident statistics, how its a blatent revenue raiser.......

Very well said

[XDV800]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Er... I think you need a better arguement if you want to win a debate about speed cameras? (and no I am not a supporter of them)



The camera takes a photo of you when you break the speed limit. A policeman pulls you over when they catch you on radar/lazer..... There is no difference there. You can argue about calibration, how the device is used etc etc... The device proves you broke the speed limit (and yes i know you can argue again about accuracy etc).



What does this have to do with speed cameras?
Speed limits were set in road laws decades before people thought of speed cameras. Speed limits were set as part of the road rules.
As part of your arguement are you saying we should have no road rules?
100kmh in a school zone? No traffic lights?




There is no assumption of anything... you broke the law and you get punished. Speed limits were set in order to try and find a balance to help traffic flow and lower the possibility of serious injury where applicable.. ie 60kmh in a built up area where there are a lot of people walking, lots of buildings etc.... it has nothing to do with speed cameras.

Your arguement seems to be totally based on the speed limit (which we have had long before cameras came along). You should be argueing about their location, the relationship between them and so-called accident statistics, how its a blatent revenue raiser.......

See part 2.

[XDV800]

Look feel free to close this thread moderators, I probably shouldn't have started this part of my topic, if all the replies are just going to be ear bashings by those that don't even read and try to digest and expand helpfully on the meaning of what is posted.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

As part of your arguement are you saying we should have no road rules?
100kmh in a school zone? No traffic lights?

That is complete nonsense. There are school speed limits here of 20mph, there are bright flashing lights telling you when that speed limit is in effect. It works, everyone slows down and obeys. There are no speed cameras here. It works. Sometimes the cops sit there just to be present, which is good. Not taking advantage of peoples forgetfulness, and telling you that you broke the law 2 weeks ago. How is that going to save a kids life? 1 sends a clear message that it's about safety, the other sends a clear message that they would rather have the money.
When they get the benefit of revenue, their credibility on safety is completely destroyed.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Not taking advantage of peoples forgetfulness, and telling you that you broke the law 2 weeks ago. How is that going to save a kids life? .

Unfortunately people many people here see the 40km/h illuminated sign outside a school and slow down from about 65km/h to 50km/h, is that really forgetfulness, no its just arrogance and selfish behaviour, if people could follow simple regs speed cameras or traffic police wouldnt be necessary, but alas there are some that the laws dont apply to.

Oh, the old argument that because they dont fine me immediately makes the speeding fine pointless because they could of gone on to kill thousands in the mean time? But you dont have a problem that every piece of road in your country is not currently monitored by patrol cars or cameras to catch these killers?

I think you are confusing human behaviour with that of dogs or small children. Discipline a dog or small child for something it did wrong 2 weeks ago, waste of time.

But humans we let on the road, most will have the mental powers to process that the speeding infringement was for something they did 2 weeks ago and that doing it again will result in more pain, it changes the long term behaviour of many people in 2 weeks that years of safe driving lectures couldnt!

Originally Posted by chevypower

Sometimes the cops sit there just to be present, which is good. .

So we only have people obeying laws when they see police cars, how many miles of road and school crossings are in your country?

Basically if we create an environment where people believe they could be detected anywhere then they will be more likely to comply more often, baffling logic I know.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by sudszy

So we only have people obeying laws when they see police cars, how many miles of road and school crossings are in your country?

No, and I didn't say they did, I just said sometimes they showed their presence, but people seem to obey the signs regardless. Because they know it's about safety. How many miles of school crossing? Bloody hell, I don't know! What difference does that make?

Originally Posted by sudszy

Basically if we create an environment where people believe they could be detected anywhere then they will be more likely to comply more often, baffling logic I know.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever read. You want to rule people by force? That is called dictatorship. If that's what you want, then you don't want freedom or democracy. Both can't co-exist. Even if your dictator's intentions are good, it is still dictatorship. Also, it wouldn't work because drivers would be more focussed on their speedo, and nothing else. Like the example I gave in the other speed camera thread of the Mercedes entering the City Link Tunnel.

Originally Posted by sudszy

"But humans we let on the road, most will have the mental powers to process that the speeding infringement was for something they did 2 weeks ago and that doing it again will result in more pain, it changes the long term behaviour of many people in 2 weeks that years of safe driving lectures couldnt!

It obviously isn't working is it? That's why people here obey the school zones, and Australians are getting fined.

Originally Posted by sudszy

But you dont have a problem that every piece of road in your country is not currently monitored by patrol cars or cameras to catch these killers?

Nope. As I said, most people drive sensibly, the only things I would change is reduce allowable BAC, and ban talking on the phone while driving (hand-held). Everything else works. "Catch these killers" A phrase based on emotion, not fact.
Sudszy, your real name isn't Steve Bracks is it? I wish I had a politician here who knew what's best for me, because obviously I have no clue. Oh I do, his name is Obama.

[DJR-351]

Maybe someone could start a thread where members can post up their favourite speed cam photo, I would......but i have never had one

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by chevypower

Nope. As I said, most people drive sensibly, the only things I would change is reduce allowable BAC, and ban talking on the phone while driving (hand-held). Everything else works. "Catch these killers" A phrase based on emotion, not fact.

I live in a small town where we don't even have a police station...the nearest Plod is 20km away in one direction, maybe 30 in the other. We have a school, we have plenty of kids walking around the streets, riding bikes (trail bikes and push bikes) through the streets...yet despite all this, what we don't have is everyone behaving like animals on the road just because we're "not being watched" by the police constantly. I know it's hard for those who believe "Every K Over Is A Killer", but even if not being watched 24 hours a day, people will, generally, do the right thing.

Most people do indeed drive sensibly. I can drive from here to Rockhampton, about 180km away, and not see a police car at all, apart from the odd one escorting a wide load, yet the Capricorn Highway isn't littered with the remains of wrecked cars and hordes of people doing 200kph.
The accidents we do have out here are not speed related...they're maybe 90% fatigue related. It's a big problem out here with miners and other shift workers who finish a 12 hour shift and try and drive a few hours back home when they get a long weekend off.

I am yet to see a speed camera that can detect a tired driver...and I'm far more concerned that the driver coming towards me could quite possibly be half asleep than the chance that he might be going 10kph over the speed limit...

I agree...hammer the real dangerous driving habits on the road...fatigue, bad drivers, drunk drivers, unroadworthy cars, people chatting merrily on thier phone...fine them and fine them hard.
However, as I said above, none of these things can be caught with a speed camera. In fact people doing any of those things are, quite usually, going slower than the average traffic flow as they are concentrating on something else besides actually driving the car effectively and safely.
Police openly say they use this behavior to home in on people like that...driving slower than the traffic, sticking carefully to the white line, weaving slightly...and this is why a visible and mobile police presence is needed instead of a fixed camera looking at one instant in time, and then only looking for one particular type of offence and ignoring completely the multitude other dangers going on at the same time.

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

What does this have to do with speed cameras?
Speed limits were set in road laws decades before people thought of speed cameras. Speed limits were set as part of the road rules.
As part of your arguement are you saying we should have no road rules?
100kmh in a school zone? No traffic lights?

In an ideal world, where drivers drove with due attention and care, we'd have no need for speed-limits whatsoever.

[XDV800]

Originally Posted by Keepleft

In an ideal world, where drivers drove with due attention and care, we'd have no need for speed-limits whatsoever.