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The Pub For General Automotive Related Talk |
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#1 | ||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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Reading about the coming Direct Injection update for the Commodore (3.0L at first, who knows for the 3.6) of course made me think about the Falcon's trusty I6. If the Commodore gets a DI 3.6 litre V6 then the I6 will be out-powered (but not out-grunted) for the first time in years. Probably bring fuel economy improvements with it as well.
So where does that leave the I6? Not really knowing what Ford's long-term plan is for the engine (for argument's sake, let's just say it will be around until 2013) it could be anything, but I would imagine that any sort of investment in the engine of the level required to bring DI to the I6 would be out of the question I would have thought. It's an 'orphan' engine don't forget and Ford is strapped for cash. I would have thought that the I6 in it's current guise would pretty much be at it's power ceiling (I'm talking about the n/a version here). But there could be some fuel efficiency improvements still to come. Electric waterpump and power steering? Engine block pre-heaters to cut down the warmup times? Cylinder deactivation (which it already has but as an overheating failsafe)? Stop-idle function? Would Ford even bother trying to compete? The engine may be down on power compared to the 3.6 DI but still would have more torque. And then of course, there is the turbo motor for performance and premium applications. But being green is the thing these days and if they don't compete at least on a fuel consumption level, they'll get left behind. Discuss. |
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#2 | |||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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No, with DI ford will have an even greater amount of power and better fuel economy. Look for a power output of about 220-225kw and fuel use down to about 8l/100klm on the combined cycle. There's still heaps of innovations available and from what I've heard, most of them will be used once the Euro4 emmissions standards come in 2010.
Things like piston design, tolerances, compression ration, dual spark, lower idle rpm, more knock sensors etc etc can add to fuel efficiency and increase power.
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#3 | ||
Workshop & Performance
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hewett SA
Posts: 4,120
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You'd assume Ford has DI on the cards if the engine still has a future?
Tis unfortunate that power numbers sell, torque is still too technical for Joe Q Public to wrap their minds around.
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#4 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
I have a friend who is a lead engineer in a notable European hi performance organisation... he forbids his engineers to reference torque, correctly deferring to power instead. If an engine develops more power than another engine at the same revs then obviously the torque calc will show a higher comparable figure. Nothing mystical about it, just juggling figures. The one good thing about manufacturers supplying a torque figure is that it can be converted back to a power figure and thus a rough performance curve. Likewise the power figure can be converted to a torque value to get an idea of area under the curve for acceleration. Neither of which are of any interest to the average car buyer, who either likes how it feels or doesn't and has to make a decison how important that is in the scheme of things. |
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#5 | |||
Clevo Mafia Inc.
![]() Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 10,496
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Quote:
Alloytec: Power 190kW @ 6500 rpm (Alloytec 190) Torque: 340Nm @ 3200 rpm (Alloytec 190) Barra 182: Power 182KW Torque 380Nm You didn't takes cubes into account, cubes give free torque, also the fact a V6 making the power higher in the range means more fuel consumption. Said fuel economy is then on the sticker of all new cars that Joe Average does see, not to mention media tests and articles. After going from an I6 to a V6 for towing (and using a heap more fuel in the process) i will never buy another. |
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#6 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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Quote:
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at with that post, but torque values increase as power increases relative to rpm. Alll things being equal a larger displacement engine does tend to inherently have a lower rpm peak BMEP and thus VE In combination with increased displacement it will produce a higher torque figure. If you load an engine at rpms lower than or higher than peak torque the VE is going to refelect the loss of efficeincy. In the case of your V6. I would suggest the average rpm was not within the best VE band, probably by necessity. |
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#7 | |||
Turbo Dinosaur FTMFW
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SA
Posts: 7,834
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Quote:
people called Wally don't have friends who are lead engineers in notable European hi performance organisations. |
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#8 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 14,654
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Quote:
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335 S/C GT: The new KING of Australian made performance cars.. ![]() |
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#9 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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#10 | |||
Turbo Dinosaur FTMFW
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: SA
Posts: 7,834
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Quote:
back in the day, when i walked to school in 5ft of snow in 40deg cel. heat, uphill both ways no less, the reply from the person would have been something along the lines of ' ![]() *sigh* |
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#11 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 817
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I thought ford was dumping the I6 in favour of a V6... And this was meant to be happening in the next couple of years?!
Edit - Article here... Seems like holden are only going DI because ford where going to beat them to it anyway... Last edited by futura97; 08-06-2009 at 12:42 PM. |
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#12 | |||
You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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The I6 as it is now would still out-torque the DI 3.6L V6. Come 2010 the standard I6 available in the base model Falcon will still be favoured as the best 6 cylinder on the market: in this range, of course.
There is one thing you cannot take away from the Alloytec, no matter what you throw at it; coarseness! Quote:
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"....You don't put the car through engineering" - Rod Barrett. Last edited by Falc'man; 08-06-2009 at 12:52 PM. |
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#13 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 817
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learn something every day
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#14 | |||
You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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Quote:
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"....You don't put the car through engineering" - Rod Barrett. |
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#15 | ||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 1,204
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Holden are releasing a 3L DI/6 speed auto later this year, fuel economy is reported to be in the 9.5/100 range so i'd say 8/100 for a 4.0/6 speed auto Falc is a bit optimistic
![]() futura, they reversed that decision and the I6 stays. Not sure what thay says about the unique Falcon but it wouldn't be surprised if it's a sign of the demise of the Aussie Falc. Not sure Holden are going DI due to Ford, that V6 is GM's world donk so the decision would have been more to do with whats needed worldwide in the battered GM bunker. As for the I6, DI and cylinder deactivation are the obvious next step as already mentioned. IIRC the reversal decision was based on the Aus govt. throwing some money Fords way which will be used for the I6's upcoming Euro 4 compliance so i'm thinking a few software tweaks + peripheral components such as exhaust/cat con's and thats about it. |
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#16 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,920
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Quote:
Now they are on equal footing with the 195kw FG. So your comment on the Falcon being out powered for the first time in years isnt exactly accurate.
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2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
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#17 | |||
Flairs - Truckers Delight
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brisbane Northside Likes: Opposite Lock
Posts: 5,731
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Quote:
the VZ of 2004 had 172kw where as the BA had 182kw The VE of 2006 had 180kw where as the BF has 190kw now the FG has 195kw about the only time the commodore outpowered the falcon was in 1986/1987 with the 114kw VL vs the 104?kw XF.
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Current: Silhouette Black 2007 SY Ford Territory TX RWD 7-seater "Black Banger"
2006-2016: Regency Red 2000 AUII Ford Falcon Forte Automatic Sedan Tickford LPG "Millennium Falcon" |
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#18 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canberra Region
Posts: 8,920
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Quote:
Well the same could apply to the EA-EB1 then, and also the XFs Base model 3.9L EA-EBIs had 120kw, VN/VP Commodore had 125kw And im glad you brought up the XF, base model XF had 90kw (and 3.2L EAs) , VL had 114kw
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2016 FGX XR8 Sprint, 6speed manual, Kinetic Blue #170 2004 BA wagon RTV project. 1998 EL XR8, Auto, Hot Chilli Red 1993 ED XR6, 5speed, Polynesian Green. 1 of 329. Retired 1968 XT Falcon 500 wagon, 3 on the tree, 3.6L. Patina project. |
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#19 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Quote:
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#20 | ||||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,064
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Quote:
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02 BA XR6 T U R B O Venom Red, Auto 13.97 @ 101mph Quote:
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#21 | |||
FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Melb north
Posts: 12,025
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Quote:
bf falcon figures: Max Power: 190kW @ 5250rpm. Max Torque: 383Nm @ 2500rpm FG Falcon NA peak power for the six-cylinder rise to 198kW at 6,000rpm and torque increase to 409Nm at 3,250rpm. |
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#22 | ||
Hoon On The Rise
![]() Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Open Roads with Boost!
Posts: 9,924
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Potential and life is of the I6 is proportionate to costs of development which is driven by consumer demand. Demand is driven by the facts / perception behind the product.
Many owners wouldn't even know what's under the bonnet except for when they boot it, it goes.
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FPV Tickford Club of NSW - www.fpvclub.com |
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#23 | |||
XP Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,098
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#24 | ||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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Given the cost involved with developing DI for the I6, I can't see it happening. Would be good, but...not tonight, Josephine.
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#25 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Quote:
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#26 | |||
Pity the fool
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Wait Awhile
Posts: 8,997
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Quote:
Don't forget, Euro 4 is all about tailpipe emissions. Fuel economy is a market driven thing. |
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#27 | |||
Donating Member
![]() Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,646
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Quote:
It's all about calibration, electronics and the exhaust system next year... |
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#28 | ||||
Force Fed Fords
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Enroute
Posts: 4,050
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Quote:
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If brains were gasoline, you wouldn't have enough to power an ants go-cart a half a lap around a Cheerio - Ron Shirley Quote:
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#29 | |||
Donating Member
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Posts: 5,646
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#30 | ||
Guess Who's Back?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,369
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"GoAuto understands the upgrade will focus on injection, calibration and exhaust, and company sources have confirmed the work will not involve moving to a direct injection system."
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257507000C2D46 |
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