Shell pulls ethanol pumps from Victoria

[csv8]

Shell pulls ethanol pumps from Victoria
Steve Colquhoun
August 12, 2011
Comments 20

Greener fuel not selling, says petroleum giant.

Cheaper ethanol-blended fuel is on the nose with Victorian motorists according to Dutch petroleum giant Shell, which is withdrawing the 10 per cent ethanol-infused E10 fuel from sale.

Shell will quit selling the environmentally friendlier fuel at all 63 of its 200 Victorian service stations that offer it, but will continue to sell E10 in other Australian states where it enjoys significantly greater popularity.

Shell spokesman Paul Zennaro said the greener fuel — a mix of unleaded petrol and plant-derived ethanol — simply wasn’t popular in Victoria, despite being between two and four cents per litre cheaper to buy.

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‘‘The Victorian public hasn’t really warmed to the product, and volumes of sales are very low,’’ he said.

Shell will switch its E10 bowsers and supply tanks over to diesel fuel, which Mr Zennaro said was booming in popularity.

The RACV’s acting manager of vehicle engineering, Nick Platt, said E10 simply didn’t stack up financially for Victorians.

‘‘Given there’s about a 3 per cent increase in fuel use, it’s probably not making financial sense,’’ he said.

‘‘The discount doesn’t cover the extra that you use by using E10. People just aren’t getting the savings they thought they would.’’

However, a spokesman for the independent United Petroleum group of service stations said demand for E10 was growing more quickly at its Victoria sites than in other states.

‘‘We introduced it about five years ago and Victoria had one of the fastest uptakes,’’ said United’s general manger of ethanol and supply, David Szymczak. ‘‘Our volume of E10 in Victoria actually growing and we’re getting really good feedback from our customers.’’

United Petroleum recently purchased an ethanol refinery in Dalby, in Queensland, and plans to continue to offer E10 at a discount around the country.

A government mandate in NSW directing retailers to stock E10 has ensured the fuel’s popularity in that state. Shell has not withdrawn the fuel from any other Australian state.

Caltex Australia last year began selling E85 — an 85 per cent blend of ethanol and petrol — as part of an agreement with Holden, which launched an E85-capable engine in its popular Commodore range.

Caltex spokesman Sam Collyer said it was too early to tell whether Victorian motorists were backing the ethanol-heavy brew, while Holden spokswoman Shayna Welsh said the car maker was undeterred in its ethanol roll-out that will see more Commodores converted to run on E85 later this year.

My comment...sugar goes in my coffee...not my car

[Jim Goose]

My comment...sugar goes in my coffee...not my car

Ethanol can be made from other things, not just sugar.
Its biggest problem is that its doesnt get as good a fuel economy as regular fuel, so the saving at the pump is worthless as you use more.

The USA had ethanol in the 1970s... Brazil currently uses a lot of it and it was brewed during WW2 and used all over Australia in those days.

There were (?) plans to get rid of regular unleaded and just have premium (and a very premium price) and E10 in Australia... then what happens?

[Ford_The_Win]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

There were (?) plans to get rid of regular unleaded and just have premium (and a very premium price) and E10 in Australia... then what happens?

I'm pretty sure that was in NSW or QLD, a state-only decision, not in Victoria. At least the powers that be in Victoria are doing something sensible for a change!

[nstg8a]

id suggest its cheaper for them to lose the e10 pumps and convert them to diesel, rather than any serious low sales of e10.

[cartaa100]

holden wouldnt be happy to see this considering they think there e85 compatible engines will be the way of the future :s

[Jason[98.EL]]

Originally Posted by cartaa100

holden wouldnt be happy to see this considering they think there e85 compatible engines will be the way of the future :s

was thinking the same

wonder if they throw some of their loss to shell now or get another bail out from govco

[GASWAGON]

Originally Posted by cartaa100

holden wouldnt be happy to see this considering they think there e85 compatible engines will be the way of the future :s

Ye i thought holdens were technologically 'the best' aussie car made because... They Go better lol! ...... EcoLPi is 'The way to Go'!!!!!

[Bossxr8]

Holdens decision to go E85 was stupid. Spending that much money tuning their engines for E85 that maybe 1% of the population have access too, and expecting other manufacturers to follow suit so it forces servos to stock it, seems to me that Holden have such big heads they think everyone will do what they do, cause they are so much better than all the others.

[foxtrot3]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holdens decision to go E85 was stupid. Spending that much money tuning their engines for E85 that maybe 1% of the population have access too, and expecting other manufacturers to follow suit so it forces servos to stock it, seems to me that Holden have such big heads they think everyone will do what they do, cause they are so much better than all the others.

Hi. Holden probably didn't have any input as to whether their current range of engines could run on fuel from cabbage juice to av-gas with that decision more than likely made in Detroit by some knob trying to sell his version of a "GM POWER-PLANT" world wide. Cheers MD

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holdens decision to go E85 was stupid. Spending that much money tuning their engines for E85 that maybe 1% of the population have access too, and expecting other manufacturers to follow suit so it forces servos to stock it, seems to me that Holden have such big heads they think everyone will do what they do, cause they are so much better than all the others.

the cars tune them self on the type of fuel used, they run an alchometer in the tank..

and if the feds force the use e85 then what?? no probs for holden.

[Jesmol]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Holdens decision to go E85 was stupid. Spending that much money tuning their engines for E85 that maybe 1% of the population have access too, and expecting other manufacturers to follow suit so it forces servos to stock it, seems to me that Holden have such big heads they think everyone will do what they do, cause they are so much better than all the others.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. They needed to redevelop the entire fuel pump system anyway for SIDI introduction. So there was no additional cost to make this happen. So for the sum total of zero dollars they've now introduced a "greener" option.

Holden already made an Ethanol compatible system as far back as 1997 , when the VT was being sold into Brazil, all the fuel lines, pumps etc were unique to suit alcohol based fuels.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by burnz

the cars tune them self on the type of fuel used, they run an alchometer in the tank..

and if the feds force the use e85 then what?? no probs for holden.

Holden spent millions adapting the engines for E85, and then had to tune them to make sure it all worked properly, then had to do all the emissions testing for it. The engines don't work on E85 unless Holden make them compatible. You've confused that with what happens when you put E85 in the tank, and the sensor works out what type of fuel its using an adapts to suit, it only does that because of the millions Holden spent tuning the ECU for it to do it. It can only figure out what type of fuel it has, and what fuel and spark settings plus a million other variables because of the base program Holden load into it.

Why do you think the 3.6 sisi can't run on E85, because Holden are still proramming it to do it at the moment and it won't be ready for at least a few more months. If it tuned it self like you say why isn't it able to run on E85 now?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Jesmol

Actually you couldn't be more wrong. They needed to redevelop the entire fuel pump system anyway for SIDI introduction. So there was no additional cost to make this happen. So for the sum total of zero dollars they've now introduced a "greener" option.

Holden already made an Ethanol compatible system as far back as 1997 , when the VT was being sold into Brazil, all the fuel lines, pumps etc were unique to suit alcohol based fuels.

Do you think they were able to tune it for E85 for nothing. It would have cost them millions. They would have done thousands of k's of testing, dyno runs, hot and cold weather testing etc. It would have been a lot of testing to prove its safe and can run on E85 under all conditions. They can't just add a fuel sensor and then say yep, it works no worries.

Just because it only required a few extra sensors to make sure it can recognise the fuel type in the tank has absolutely no bearing on how much it cost Holden to put it into production. They still haven't tuned the 3.6 for E85 yet either, they are still in testing for it. If what you claim in that it didn't cost Holden anything to do because the SIDI fuel system was already compatible would mean that the 3.6 would already be running on E85. But they have been testing it for months now getting it ready for production, and that costs bucket loads of money. Every aspect of its operation must be tested and tuned for.

[EDManual]

thats great news!
I never understood it. 90% unleaded, 10% ethanol, i've found you lose at least 4% efficiency.

That says the 90% unleaded is doing its 90% thing, but the 10% ethonol is only giving 6% to the total! Useless stuff!

[JC807]

i'd be tuning my car on E85 if it was more available.

i'm hoping there is a swing towards its popularity.

E10 is a completely different product and a different market to E85.

Being more useful for turbo and high-comp motors, i was surprised to see Holden release the v8 with E85 compatibility.

[drew`SEVNT5]

And thank god they are!

Work gave me a Shell card that only gets Unleaded95 (because that is what my handbook states as minimum fuel) and 75% of the outlets in Melbourne had E10 instead of Unleaded95... Already, have seen 20-odd places that have replaced the E10 pumps with Diesel & Unleaded95

[gumbi_18]

I wish NSW would get rid of E10 as well. It's getting very hard to find places that have 91 anymore. I find that my fuel effciency drops with E10 and my car runs a bit rougher. I've been using 95 recently instead - going to have to use 98 from tomorrow when I pick up the new xr6t!

[gtfpv]

i have an NA FG . i dont notice any economy difference between E10 AND 98 RON . does anyone else with the fg , notice any economy differences . the car does go slightly harder on 98 though .

[TZENU]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i have an NA FG . i dont notice any economy difference between E10 AND 98 RON . does anyone else with the fg , notice any economy differences . the car does go slightly harder on 98 though .

MY FG XR6 ute gets better economy on 98 over E10 .... I notice the better economy during peak hour, which is odd... Have only ever filled up twice with E10

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

i have an NA FG . i dont notice any economy difference between E10 AND 98 RON . does anyone else with the fg , notice any economy differences . the car does go slightly harder on 98 though .

I found the FG not getting as good a mileage on E10 as 91 ron. But my BFII get just as good mileage but the extra power.

I also found 98 not worth the extra money (in terms of mileage) in a B-series or an FG.

[The Mighty Red]

This is great news for Victorians, I wish we could get rid of E10 up here or atleast sell it at a price that actually warrants buying the rubbish

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by The Mighty Red

This is great news for Victorians, I wish we could get rid of E10 up here or atleast sell it at a price that actually warrants buying the rubbish

read post 14 . it isnt rubbish , runs fine in my car , and cheep . i think people just fall into the HOGWASH , and consider it fact .
example , sitting in a strange car , no one would know what fuel is in the tank . ( and that is fact ) eg 2: people call E10 rubbish , but rubbish is usually paper that goes into a bin ( another fact) . bit like rain water versus bottled water

[The Mighty Red]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

read post 14 . it isnt rubbish , runs fine in my car , and cheep . i think people just fall into the HOGWASH , and consider it fact .
example , sitting in a strange car , no one would know what fuel is in the tank . ( and that is fact ) eg 2: people call E10 rubbish , but rubbish is usually paper that goes into a bin ( another fact) . bit like rain water versus bottled water

fuel consumption on my car sky rockets when I use E10 in comparison to regular unleaded fuel , so on that stand point I would call it rubbish

[Day-mow]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

. bit like rain water versus bottled water

you cant taste the difference between rain water and bottled water?

[csv8]

I put E10 in my Fez and it doesn't like it !!! V-Power and she purrs...

[gtfpv]

ok . perhaps it is not so good in older vehicles . i thought the FG BEING more of a self tuning ecu , might be better compared to other cars , my mate has switched to E10 from 95 with his BF XR8 and says there is absolutely no difference in economy or power . me in the FG 6 notice a drop off in power , but no difference in economy .
funny how some cars and owners have great differences and others dont .

[ebxr8240]

They'll get a bigger carbon tax cheque back???

[GASWAGON]

Seems like pretty bad timing for Shell too with this new carbon tax coming in next year.... Surely they could have done some t.v advertising to push it on for 12 months?
But then it's not really a 'green fuel' after all the energy that goes into producing it in the first plac is it?
On the otherhand Lpg is a left over by product of petrol/diesel etc that we already have VAST amounts of ready to go... maybe Shell will fit some more Lpg pumps for the EcoLpi???

[Fiesta God]

Every single test carried out proves that when comparing cost/litres/kms travelled, E10 does nothing to save you money.

It's less efficient than petrol and the reduction in efficiency is not offset by the cheaper price.

I'm glad that Shell have made this decision in Victoria, and I pity those in Qld who are being forced to use E10.

I only use 98RON BP Ultimate but I don't think E10 is a viable fuel ...

[2011G6E]

I've never understood how it's better for the environment to deliberately make your car get worse fuel economy, as well as the little problem of ethanol being an every negative fuel...it takes more energy to grow, process, transport, refine, and get to consumer than is contained in the product. You cannot avoid that fact, and if you tried to fuel the whole manufacturing process and transport with ethanol, you would always run out a negative.

If the true cost of E10 was shown...without the massive taxpayer subsidies...it would be maybe ten to twenty centers dearer than normal unleaded.