WQ Fiesta XR4/ST150 with Mazda SP25 engine

[Luke Plaizier]

Hey Everyone

I'm embarking on a journey. In Mighty Car Mods style I want to build a nugget - something small and easy to work on. I have my heart set on a WQ Fiesta XR4 -aka a Mark 6.5 ST150 in the UK. The 2.0 duratech is an engine-mount and bell-housing match to a Mazda SP25 L5-VE engine. I'd looked at a MazdaSpeed/MPS 2.3, but with Direct Injection the Spanish Oak ECU from the WQ would not be able to drive it. The SP25 is a port injected engine with exhaust cam phasing just like the Duratech HE 2.0.

The SP25 is a cheap engine - as little as $700 as I see it for a <200k engine. Whereas a >200k WQ Fiesta is in the $3k to $5k bracket.

The Mazda L5-VE, while the same block and head as the Duratech, looks to have a different tappet cover and coils, but so much else seems similar. The SP25 has a higher block deck height for the longer stroke, so there might be some challenges with the reach of the exhaust, but all the gasket part numbers appear to swap. Find car care products at lower costs in ALDI Catalogue.

The L5-VE also seems to have a pretty solid crank and piston configuration, so look to be good for some mild boosting. That would be something further down the track, but an option.

So I want to give this a go. Does anyone here have any wise words?


Lukeyson

[Bossxr8]

Interesting. I guess it comes down to wether the extra height of the engine may cause fitment issues.

And wether the factory ecu will run an engine of a different capacity. Do you plan to give the ecu a tune to suit the bigger engine?

[Luke Plaizier]

Yes. The Visteon ESU PCM used by Fiesta/Focus/Mondeo at the time looks remarkably similar to the Australian Falcon ASU Spanish oak of the same period - but you know how they keep most of that stuff under cloak and dagger. The WQ Fiesta XR4/ST150 is listed as tunable in the SCT x4. As for the exhaust CAM phaser, I expect the Mazda and Ford may be different as most of the difference in those engines lies above the head casting from what my research is showing. So that is a risk.

The deck height on the Mazda L3-VE and the L5-VE are the same, with the 2.5 having a slightly different bore and crank. There are a number of sites in the UK where people have done Duratech 2.0 to Duratech 2.3 swaps. Some of them are hard core with Frankenstein setups, deleting the balance shaft and other wholesale changes to get the head with the best flow. But the gist I get from those is that the change in deck height isn't a significant problem. A few question whether fitting the MazdaSpeed LF-VE 2.3 is an option given it has better internals, but I've not seen anyone do it yet - and like I said, the direct injection.

I think the biggest change in doing a Duratech to L5-VE swap will be in the harness - but I've swapped a BF Fairlane harness into a BA XR8 before and that was heaps of fun. My last engine swap was going back 20 years though.

Regarding the ECU - one thing I'd thought about is the recent Haltech Plug-in ECU that comes in 2 parts numbers - probably the ABU-Black Oak and ASU-Spanish Oak versions. The main thing that has to be done is to replicate what the ECU provides on the CAN bus for speed/RPM/PATS security. So it may be possible that it could be recoded to support the Fiesta CAN messaging too, since the ECU pin formats look pretty close. I've got some Falcon ECU's here so maybe I should get a WQ ECU and compare. With an ECU that is more programmable, and with an additional custom connector, that opens up the possibility of direct injection control. But at $3k for the Haltech ECU, that would make it possibly more expensive than the car itself.....


Luke

[Luke Plaizier]

I went on another journey once: http://www.fordmods.com/ecu-fuel-sys...un-t25010.html


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

In my travels, one thing I've found is that it's the Mazda L block that forms the basis of the current 4 cylinder Ecoboost engines. Ford now put their own DiVCT direct injection head on them - likewise Mazda do the same with their SkyActive heads. But otherwise you could fit up a 2.3 Ecoboost into any previous Mazda-L or 4Cyl Duratec directly to the mounts and gearbox, as long as you were happy to build custom exhausts and inlet and had a good enough aftermarket ECU to drive the cams, direct injectors and torque-controlled turbo.

So the Mustang Ecoboost and Focus ST/RS are running Mazda blocks still. Or at least if Ford are casting them, they are still cast to the Mazda design.


Luke

[Bossxr8]

I guess sensor compatability is one thing to consider. Can always swap in Ford sensors if the Mazda ones are different.

[Luke Plaizier]

Pragmatism is starting to take hold as I get closer to making a decision on where to go. I'm now tending towards the 2.3. And there are a few reasons.

(1) The Ford Escape came with a 2.3 in the same vintage, so they are readily accessible in Oz at a similar <$1k price bracket. So rather than going cross-family from Ford to Mazda for the 2.5, I can get one with a Ford badge. However, there's not much difference when it's all said and done. The coils on the Escape 2.3 look almost identical to the SP25 coils, so I'd be up for the same challenge. But I wonder - would the escape engine loom work in a Fiesta? Curious. Time to hunt down some manuals and wiring diagrams.

(2) Pumaspeed from the UK do forged crank, rods and pistons for the 2.3, but not for the 2.5. So it makes sense to pick something with a forged path....

(3) Getting the base 2.3 into the chassis and on the road in Australia does not require an engineers certificate, while the 2.5 does. Mind you, NAT or Supercharging the 2.3 in the future would require a cert. (https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents...ifications.pdf )

(4) There are turbo and supercharger kits for the 2.0 and the 2.3 in the ST150/XR4. It seems like the 2.3 is a supported path overseas - but something not done with any real zest in Oz.


Lukeyson

[happy1]

Hi,
I like your thinking for a hotrod Fiesta ST Mk4 ;-) The good thing is this model already had the 2-litre block, and as you say the 2.3 is just a stroked and taller version of this block.

However, when looking up the performance for Mazda SP23, it is listed as only 115kW, so not much gain over the Fiesta ST. I think you would later on punch yourself for not going with a turbocharged version from the start.

Another thing to consider is that a Focus shell as a starting point (rather than Fiesta) would give you more space to work with, and would give you much better road holding, such as the torque steer prevention front hubs from Focus RS that would fit directly onto that body shell.

Burton UK has a few words to say about the Duratec engine tuning: https://www.burtonpower.com/tuning-g...ing-guide.html
(Pistons and rods are not that strong from factory), but in general positive comments.

You seem to already be aware of all the specs and applications for the Mazda L-engine, but this article gives a good overview: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_L_engine

Also this article describes the Ecoboost variants and applications:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_EcoBoost_engine
I haven't thought as much about this build idea as you have, but the Ecoboost article brings me to wanting to get hold of an Ecoboost 2.3 from a Mustang, and drop it into a Focus or Fiesta shell. (or alternatively get an ecoboost 2.0 from a Falcon if that cost less).

When it comes to the ECU/PCM, it seems the various Ecoboost engines came with a Bosch MED17 system. This could be a difficult system to crack open and tune, but there would be some knowledge built up already with the tuners for the Focus RS and Mustang. Since this is a Ford adapted ECU it should be possible for other systems to recognise some of the CAN messages, or at worst translate some of the packages. The challenge will be to make it work with DSC and immobiliser functions etc. Perhaps need to transfer several modules from the donor vehicle.
I believe you will need the specific ECU for the selected engine, and not try to use another ECU due to the cam timing arrangement etc.

I found an article by a guy that has studied the MED17 for WV applications http://www.u-obd.com/2018/10/31/repa...h-med17-5-ecu/ (not sure how different this ECU is from the Ecoboost one).

I have discussed with a local Perth tuner about stand-alone operation of the diesel PCM found in Territory which is also a Bosch ECU, and it should in theory be possible. (I haven't dropped off my engine yet to have it done as it will cost $$$).

Another very interesting development lately is the work done in Australia by AGT Engineering:
http://www.agtengineering.com.au/canbus.html

http://agtengineering.com.au/pdf/CAN...ual%20v0.1.pdf
They are describing that Ford and Nissan vehicles are under development. (In addition to their ongoing GM and Subaru standard CAN conversion products).

Perhaps you can discuss with AGT about the Ford / Bosch ECU, and what they can do / and how far they have come with the Ford R&D work?

Cheers,

[Bossxr8]

FRPP do stand alone control pack kits for the 2 litre ecoboost with ecu, loom etc, for fitting into different vehicles. Might be worth a look.

[V8falcons]

Interesting.. I'm leaning towards a mps 6spd gearbox LSD conversion for my xr4/st150... at the moment due to clutch issues, seems to have a answered a few questions.. On gearbox line ups.. Just need to sort out drive shafts and linkages..
Will be following this thread..

[zabatron]

It's definitely a good idea to upgrade to a 6 speed manual gearbox/LSD as the standard ib5+ gearbox is a light duty unit,and won't last long once you up the power and torque.I owned an XR4 from new,and although the gearbox never blew up on mine,I saw many of these gearboxes blow up behind the standard 2 litre Duratec HE.

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by V8falcons

Interesting.. I'm leaning towards a mps 6spd gearbox LSD conversion for my xr4/st150... at the moment due to clutch issues, seems to have a answered a few questions.. On gearbox line ups.. Just need to sort out drive shafts and linkages..
Will be following this thread..

Hey there. I'd be interested in hearing more about this. What are your actual plans?

The Mazda 3 MPS is the FWD Tranny which I can see you using - the A26MR. I see that transmission also in the Turbo Diesel Mazda 6. The Diesel MZR-CD engine, however, is based on the earlier Mazda F engines and is not a bell housing match for the L/Duratec. Pity. We had Diesel Mazda 6's from all the way back to the first GG model. I see some forums with MX6/626 owners fawning over possibilities with this high-torque transmission.

The Mazda 6 MPS A26MX-R has the AWD take off - boy would I love to see you take that one on with a rear diff in a WP/WQ Fiesta and tell me how it's done! CX-7 has this tranny as well.

There are a litany of manual and auto transmissions for the Mazda 3 and Mazda 6. I have no idea what's what yet. Of the manuals I see G35M-R, G36M-R, A65M-R, G66M-R - PLUS the A26 variants. Some 5 speed, some 6 speed. Some with reverse syncro. Some 2 shaft, some 3 shaft. Some may not even be found in Oz since we never saw the V6 models. Too confusing.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Of the manuals I see G35M-R, G36M-R, A65M-R, G66M-R - PLUS the A26 variants. Some 5 speed, some 6 speed. Some with reverse syncro. Some 2 shaft, some 3 shaft. Some may not even be found in Oz since we never saw the V6 models. Too confusing.
Lukeyson

OK, I finally found something that made some sense out of this earlier post.

Mazda 3 BK - 2003-2009

F35M-R 5 Speed Manual for the 1.3 and 1.6
G66M-R 6 Speed Manual for the 2.0 (And probably the 2.3)
J65M-R 5 Speed Manuals for the 1.6 Diesel
FN4A-EL - 4 Speed Auto for the 1.6

Mazda 3 BL - 2009-2013

G35M-R 5 Speed Manual - for the low spec models. Perhaps the 1.8
G66M-R 6 Speed Manual - for higher spec 2.0/2.3/2.5
A26M-R - 6 Speed Manual for MPS and Diesel
FS5A-EL - 5 Speed Auto

Mazda 6 GG - 2002 to 2008

Early Models:
G35M-R 5 Speed - 1.8,2.0,2.3
4N4A-EL Auto

From 2005 onwards
G35M-R 5M - 1.8
G66M-R 6M - 2.0/2.3
A26M-R 6M - Diesel
JA5AX-EL 5A - 2.3 AWD
FS5A-EL 5A - 2.0/2.3
A26M-R - Diesel
A26MX-R - 2.3 MPS

Mazda 6 GH - 2007 - 2012
Pretty much the same as the MY05 update I think, with the G35M-R replaced by the G36M-R.

There's also a 3.7L V6 Mazda 6 (The Ford Cyclone engine) in the US with two transmissions for that:
AW6A-EL 6A
AW6AX-EL (Auto AWD)


So the G66M-R and an MPS A26M-R would fit to the Fiesta engine. But mounts and driveshafts would be a complete guess. The A26M-R from the diesel wouldn't work since the Diesel duratec is not the same bolt pattern.

But a V6 AWD Mazda 6? Wow. I wonder if one could be worked up from Australian pieces using the CX9 3.7 and drivetrain (mounts, ECU and loom might need to come from the US)? The bottom end on the thing is forged (See here) so with some boosting it has the potential to have way more power than an MPS....


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Appreciate the input.

I want to try my hand at the 'cheap' upgrade first - either the 2.3 or the 2.5. The 2.5 isn't completely off the table. I see that they come readily in the Mazda 6 as well, which makes it even more easy to get. The 2.5 gets us up to 125kW/229Nm using the factory tune. With a bit of intake/exhaust tweaking, tune and perhaps a CAM we should be able to get this up closer to the WT Fiesta ST non-overboost in the short term. PLUS, the Manual WQ is 100kg lighter than the Manual WT.

I've also uncovered a post of someone advising that the L5 2.5 has internals almost as strong as the MPS 2.3 engine, with forged crank and rods at least - which keeps the future open. The pistons might be the limiting factor. Some notes on the 2.5 MZR engine:

MotorReviewer 5L-VE summary

MotorReviewer 3L-VDT Summary

Thread on 5L-VE internals

So to the big question - is certification of a 2.0L to 2.5L swap in NSW a big deal?

As for the gearbox, I see that the IB4 was only mated to the Duratec for the XR4/ST150. Everything else used an MTX75. Google says that there were some kits a few years back for fitting the MTX75 manual trans into the ST150 - but I don't see anything still current. I understand it needed custom transmission mount, changed gear lever cables and custom driveshafts. Finding anyone with either these kits or the specs for these kits would be a bit of good luck.

Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Some ST150 links with an attempted focus on the MTX75:

http://fordfiestast.co.uk/ubbthreads...te_id/1#import



https://www.facebook.com/SiCoDevelop...61003877279787

https://passionford.com/forum/techni...-gear-box.html

https://www.sico-developments.co.uk/...-fiesta-mk6-st

https://www.focusstoc.com/forums/top...ged-fiesta-st/

[Luke Plaizier]

A little bit of info from an OZ source no less regarding an NAT conversion on a 2.5. Looks like the rod main bearings are a tiny bit smaller on the 2.5 compared to the 2.3-VDT engine.

https://www.ozmpsclub.com/forum/engi...2-5-turbo.html


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

There's certainly some deals to be had:

Mazda 3 SP25 engine and transmission. Only travelled ~37200km - $500 (VIC)

The going rate for the L5 though seems to be around $700 to $750 for something around 150k...

MAZDA 6 ENGINE PETROL 2.5 MOTOR L5 GH 02/08-11/12 $750 133302km

MAZDA 6 ENGINE PETROL, 2.5, L5, GH, 02/08-11/12 08 09 10 11 12 $750.42 159773km

MAZDA 6 Engine PETROL, 2.5, L5, GH, 02/08-11/12 08 09 10 11 12 $700 130882km

MAZDA 6 ENGINE PETROL, 2.5, L5, GH, 02/08-11/12 $700 150202km

[Aaron]

I had a brief chat with an Engineer out going 2.3L. It still requires a certificate but it doesn’t require all the testing of things like brakes etc.

Personally I’m keeping a lazy eye open for a 2.3. Then it will either have a piggyback cam controller or I’ll have to disable the VVT. It’s my “if it pops” plan.

That’s a two two stage trick with a non-VVT cam gear required as well as a blanking plug in the head. The stock 2.0 ecu and injectors have sufficient latitude to run the 2.3, but the 60mm throttle body would be handy ;)

I keep thinking about the gearbox though. Mazda G35M-R and G36M-R (5 and 6 speed respectively) seem to look a bit more fitment friendly than the MTX75. In particular the end housing that has to work in the same space as the frame (even on an IB5).

[Aaron]

Oh and look at some Mazda2 shifter and cable setups.

[Luke Plaizier]

I had drawn up in CAD and 3D printed some prototypes and test fit to one of the MTX75 gearboxes I have in the shed.

This model is a 'gully gusseted' version and how I'd anticipate it to look once fully assembled.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmuzDiWLgL4

Press-bending limits what you can do because of the way any bend tool needs to access the piece. SO this is what was printed and test fitted:







Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

One last thing. Happy1 has tried to suggest going with a Focus as the base as it would have more space and be more likely to fit things in. I don't mind that suggestion, but I do need to point out that a base model 2008 2.0L CL Focus weighs in at 1278kg, whereas the 2008 WQ Fiesta XR4 manual Weights in at 1090kg....


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

The Burton Power catalogue is a wealth of info for European Ford engines - including the Duratech. And lots of options regarding the 2.5L as well.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

This ECU option grabbed my attention:

https://au-jamsportstore.glopalstore...gnplay-ecu-kit

Australian Supplier of the ECU

Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Here's a useful post.

Someone has written up an article on how to swap a 2.5 MZR into an NC Mazda MX5. In this case they look to be using the FWD engine as a Donor. Long read.

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=522719

Plus a more detailed discussion on the differences between the 2.0 and 2.5 for both Ford and Mazda:

https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=622764


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Here's a useful post..... Long read.

Still reading....

[Luke Plaizier]

Summary of interesting findings:

2.5L stock motor is good for 430whp at around 18lbs. Confirms comments earlier and elsewhere.

To accommodate the increase deck height in the MX5, they've had to fabricate slightly lowered engine mounts for the Manifolds to all fit. So not sure if this is also a thing for the Fiesta.

They talk about swapping sumps but that's only to accommodate the RWD conversion. I expect no sump swap in the Fiesta. Also, the sump swap means that the Balance Shaft has to be removed. But I'd just as soon keep it on the 2.5.

Just about everything swaps across - there's talk of needing to move the PCV valve over from the 2 Litre. Some talk of having to change the loom plug over form Mazda to Ford for the intake VVT controller (and yes, I'd incorrectly stated that the Exhaust cam was phased in an earlier post- my bad).

Crank pulley would need to be swapped - it has a different number of teeth between Ford and Mazda.

All the Ford ignition gear should fit into the Mazda head.

The 2.5 head has much bigger exhaust ports and flows significantly better than the 2.0 head - even better than some of the special 2.0 Race-Heads that some companies were selling aftermarket apparently. So the big thing will be the jump in port size when bolting up the 2.0 headers. If there's any way that the 2.5 headers can be used, I'll give it a go. Otherwise the suggestion is to die-grind the inside of the 2.0 headers to better match the 2.5 head. But the 2.0 headers will then be a restriction going forward. The 2.0 headers need a gasket, the 2.5 headers are apparently grooved O-Rings. You could use a 2.0 Gasket and get within 1mm of the 2.5 ports. Keep in mind that this is all MX5 specific so I'll have to pay attention to differences if tried on the Fiesta.

The factory ECU on the MX5 was fine running the 2.5 swap without too many mods, but as the mods stack up the ECU might start to struggle. The factory map can start, run and putter-around the 2.5 fine, but don't do a power run. The 2.5 has slightly bigger injectors, keep those.

There are lots of individual posts about certain sensors needing to be swapped from the Ford into the Mazda block. I can't recall where the crank angle sensor is - whether that is what's on the pulley or not.

The 2.5 swap looks to be what everyone is recommending in MX5 land - if you have a high mileage NC MX5, do the 2.5 swap first, and than start your mods. The NC MX5 is also down close to 1100kg and in itself looks compelling - but the things are still around $12k, so some 3 x the price of a similar aged XR4/ST150, which takes it off the table for me in the short term as a cheap shed-friendly nugget build.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

This is worth a read too - detailed history of the MZR/Duratec Engines. I got a little bit of fizz out of this one.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

From what I can see, the Mazda 6 2.5L wasn't all that popular in the US - where a 3.7L V6 Mazda 6 was also sold (!!). It also doesn't seem to have been that popular in the UK.

In the US, however, there are a number of Ford 2.5L variants that are available. However, the Fiesta also doesn't seem to have been sold there. The Ford 2.5L to Mazda swap seems to be the economical choice in US-Miata-land, which is what is giving us such good info on the cross-manufacturer swaps..

Here in Oz, though, I don't think we had any Ford 2.5L I4 models - did we?. 2.3L yes, and 2.5L I5 in the XR5 Focus/Mondeo. Hence we have to look the other way - Mazda 2.5L into Ford, where the US experience should help.

In the UK, I don't think they have many 2.5L Mazda OR Ford variants. It's the UK that seems to have the most activity on Fiesta tuning. So I can see a lot of places doing the 2.3 swap, but not many discussing a 2.5 swap. So I'll spend a bit more time trying to find specifics about the ST150 2.3 Swap, to see if they have any gotcha's re engine mounts and manifold access.


The other topic that will be worth diving into deeper is the brakes. I see that the Focus ST 170 300mm front/270mm rears are a bolt up fit to the ST150 (ST150 already has 278mm fronts I believe? Can anyone correct me?). But the ST170 wasn't big seller in Oz, so I'm not confident of getting cheap parts. The other option is the Mondeo - or even the XR5 Mondeo - where the front calipers look like they bolt up to the Fiesta with a little drilling from M10 to M12, but I'm not sure about the rotors or the rears yet. The ST170 route will have aftermarket sports pads available, but not so sure about the Mondeo.


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Er, I ain't going this nuts:

http://www.teamshock.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16217


Lukeyson

[Luke Plaizier]

Swapping the Crank Pulley appears to be because you'd be swapping all the 2.0 ancillaries (Alternator, A/C Compressor/ P Steer) across to the 2.5. I assume the water pump pulley would be swapped too. Someone has mentioned that a custom belt might be needed- I take it then that something like the p-Steer must bolt off the side of the head instead of everything being on the block. The Belt-Route on the front of Ford and Mazda motors all seems different according to what google shows me. The 2.0 belt can't be used due to the extra 15mm deck height on the 2.5.

Apparently the bolt for the Crank pulley is a tension-fit, so a new one would be required. Some talk of a compressed washer behind the front cover needing to be replaced too -requiring the front cover to come off. And with the pulley coming off the system may need to be re-timed - which is apparently a big deal on the L series engines as they are an interference engine, and special tools are needed.


Lukeyson